The Good Doctor (Porsche!)

[daepp]

As we sift through all of our technical and OT issues, it's good to remember the good.doctor's.amazing.achievements!

72 years ago! 1938 "The cars used supercharged engines that eventually produced almost 550 horse-power (which also contributed toward the handling difficulties, as it promoted the oversteer which the cars already had in abundance). The engine was originally the V16 engine that Porsche had started designing earlier; when, starting in 1938, the maximum engine displacement for Grand Prix cars was limited to 3 litres for blown engines, it became a V12. It was originally designed to 6 litre specifications, but would start at 4,360 cc and 295 bhp. It had two cylinder blocks, inclined at an angle of 45 degrees, with a single overhead camshaft to operate all 32 valves. The engine was designed to provide optimum torque at low engine speeds. (Bernd Rosemeyer later drove one around the Nürburgring in a single gear, to prove the engine was flexible enough to do it!)

He had been designing vehicles for almost 40 years at this point. And IIRC he had even done time for his work during WWI. 550 HP from 3 liters in 1938 - that is impressive. And his best work was still ahead of him! Say what you want, he was an amazing engineer!

[Wilhelm]

"He had been designing vehicles for almost 40 years at this point. And IIRC he had even done time for his work during WWI. "

Minor correction. Actually, Dr. Porsche was imprisoned by the French after WWII. Not WWI. His health declined whilst imprisoned for almost 2 years. He was freed from prison and died in January 1951 I believe it was. I agree he certainly was an amazing Engineer.

[Flieger]

In The War To End All Wars,

That whole Mixte drive system and the Lohner Porsche hybrid were his design. The Mixte drive was used for a sort of land train of trucks + trailers with hub mounted electric motors, powered by an on-board generator. The Wehrmacht liked him and his vehicles very much, and I believe he received an award for it.

[Flieger]

see also Porsche's new hybrid

[efhughes3]

Read Ferry's biography "We at Porsche"-he was at his father's side for much of the time, and he does a good job relating the progression of his father's carreer.

[Flieger]

I agree. "We At Porsche" was a great read and I enjoyed it. I know right where it is on my shelf.

[daepp]

Originally Posted by Flieger

In The War To End All Wars,

That whole Mixte drive system and the Lohner Porsche hybrid were his design. The Mixte drive was used for a sort of land train of trucks + trailers with hub mounted electric motors, powered by an on-board generator. The Wehrmacht liked him and his vehicles very much, and I believe he received an award for it.

These have always fascinated me:

[daepp]

The Duesenberg Model J of that era had half the HP of the C type. Grated it wasn't a race car...

[Nine17]

Originally Posted by DAEpperson

And his best work was still ahead of him!

What work was that?

Your cut-and-paste from Wikipedia fails to make clear that the Porsche-designed Auto Union GP cars were the Typ A and Typ C. The Typ C ultimately made 500+ hp from a six liter supercharged V-16. Rudolf Uhlenhaut and Max Sailer's Mercedes-Benz W125 did better than that: 595 hp from a 5.7 liter supercharged straight-8.

When the "750 Kilogram" formula ended in 1937 and a 3-liter supercharged limit was imposed for GP racing, Auto Union design passed from Porsche to Prof. Dr. Robert Eberan von Eberhorst, whose team was responsible for the Typ D three liter supercharged V-12, making 480 hp. Also, von Eberhorst's de Dion rear suspension was considered much more effective than Porsche's swing-axles.

Ferry loved his dad and kept the legend alive, but his best work was behind him after 1937. The post-war Porsche automotive heritage that we know and love was the driven by Ferry Porsche, Erwin Komenda, and Karl Rabe...

[daepp]

I guess you have a point there. Did he do nothing with respect to the 356 or the flat 4?

[Flieger]

Ferry showed him the 356 and Ferdinand saw that it was good, giving his approval. Ferry had been the designer, much of it while Ferdinand was imprisoned.

Ferdinand had a big hand in the flat-4 VW motor, which was modified for use in the 356, but he was not long enough for this world at that time to do any of the actual engineering in making a Porsche motor out of a VW.

[Wilhelm]

"Ferry had been the designer, much of it while he was imprisoned."

Ferdinand was the one who was imprisoned.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

"Ferry had been the designer, much of it while he was imprisoned."

Ferdinand was the one who was imprisoned.

Yes, I am sorry I did not make that clear. Ferdinand was the antecedant of "he".

[Nine17]

First, let me say how terrific it is that there is so much interest in automotive history on this Forum. You guys are the best!

As for Prof. Porsche, by the time he left Daimler-Benz and formed the Porsche design bureau in 1931, he was more of a project manager than the hands-on engineer he had been for the previous 35 years. The nitty-gritty design of the Beetle has been attributed to his employees Franz Xaver Reimspiess (engine), Karl Rabe (transmission), and Erwin Komenda (body). Prof. Porsche also admitted that the Beetle design was greatly influenced by the ideas of his friend Hans Ledwinka; so much so that the Volkswagenwerk wound up paying millions to Tatra in a patent-infringement suit filed before the invasion of Czechoslovakia and settled after the War. Most of this is outlined in Ludvigsen's books.

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Yes, I am sorry I did not make that clear. Ferdinand was the antecedant of "he".

Got it. I kinda knew what you meant. Just wanted to clear that up.

[daepp]

Originally Posted by Nine17

The nitty-gritty design of the Beetle has been attributed to his employees Franz Xaver Reimspiess (engine), Karl Rabe (transmission), and Erwin Komenda (body). Prof. Porsche also admitted that the Beetle design was greatly influenced by the ideas of his friend Hans Ledwinka; so much so that the Volkswagenwerk wound up paying millions to Tatra in a patent-infringement suit filed before the invasion of Czechoslovakia and settled after the War. Most of this is outlined in Ludvigsen's books.

I have to admit when I saw these MBZ's (at Mercedes Classic in Irvine)they really made me wonder:

[nesslar]

Wow...a Mercedvolks Benzeetle....

[Nine17]

Originally Posted by DAEpperson

I have to admit when I saw these MBZ's (at Mercedes Classic in Irvine)they really made me wonder:

Austrian Erwin Komenda, the main designer of the Beetle at the Porsche design office, was chief engineer at D-B from 1929-1931 after Dr. Porsche brought him over from Steyr. What's more, the Austrian who was writing all the checks after 1933, Hitler, personally knew both Porsche and Hans Ledwinka and was himself promoting the ideas of his countrymen, but in true Nazi fashion wanted to build the KdF-Volkswagen at a state-owned factory rather than at privately-owned Daimler-Benz.

These Austrians were all working from the same script, first produced in the '20's as the Benz Tropfenwagen, written by another Austrian, Edmund Rumpler. Unfortunately Rumpler, who many feel was the real brains behind both Porsche and Ledwinka and who patented the aerodynamic design, rear engine, and swing axles of the Tropfenwagen, was not only Viennese; he was also Jewish. Rumpler was imprisoned until sprung by Goering, out of respect for Rumpler's WWI aviation designs (Edmund Rumpler was the first German aircraft manufacturer as well after helping develop the Taube at the Lohner-Werke in Vienna Austria where Porsche had designed the gas-electric Mixte). Ferdinand Porsche was a great designer, but sadly Nazi propaganda was largely responsible for the myth of the "genius" of Porsche.

[Nine17]

Just in case the connection hasn't been made clearly enough, take a look at the cars below.

The Mercedes-Benz 150 H Heckmotor coupe was prepared for the 1934 2000 km Trial -- sort of a Nazi Mille Miglia. Hans Nibel and Max Wagner, who had worked for Porsche and Komenda when they were at D-B, based this 2-seat coupe on the mid-engined Rumpler/Benz Tropfenwagen chassis. There can be little doubt that Hitler wanted his KdF/Volkswagen to look like a jedermann version of this racer (in a 1980 Automobile Quarterly article Griff Borgeson actually includes a sketch of a similar car initialed "A.H. '34"). This car doesn't only resemble the Beetle; there is quite a family resemblance to Ferry Porsche and Erwin Komenda's 356 coupe. Remember, the the original 356 was mid-engined.

Below it I've included an image of Nibel and Wagner's Rumpler-derived 1923 Tropfenwagen racer, which was clearly the inspiration for Porsche's later P-wagen Auto Union GP racers.

[Wil Ferch]

The air scoop over ole # 366 also looks a LOT like the ones used on some 956/962 versions.