This Could Be An Interesting Thread to Follow***
 

I am going to leave out names, in case it becomes a lawsuit, but this is for the sole purpose of potentially saving someone else my troubles.

So I got a discounted oil change card and decided to give the local shop a try. After all I figured it was just an oil change and it was very convenient. This upon looking back was not a good idea.

I posted a while back about overfilling so some of you may recall. But I'll take you through it again.

I showed up and told the shop to be sure to drain the oil in both locations. I said there was a drain under the engine and one under the tank.

And I waited about 2 hours. When all was done the service manager told me he had his guys do some research and yes they drained both "plugs. The car is a 79SC.

Upon getting in my car I was in a hurry to get to the office and just did not think too much about it. (about 9 miles)

When I proceeded home (About 12 miles) I heard weird noises coming from the engine, and it sounded very loud and it smoked. I got home and checked the oil and it was about 2-3 inches over the full mark.

I called the shop and they were very nice and said bring it in, I told him I hoped I did not damage, he said not to worry he'll take care of everything.

Next morning I went to the shop for them to drain. They took about 1.5 quarts out. When I got the car back I immediately noticed the EOL and brake lights were on and stayed on at an idle. 1st time they have ever done that. The service manager said it appears they go out soon as you up the idle a bit with the gas pedal. Yes, true, so I assumed all was OK.

I then drove it back and forth to work for about a week and the weird noise I kept hearing. On a whim I decided best to take it to my Porsche mechanic and see what they thought.

Once there the sound did not make itself known, but the P mechanic immediately noticed the Druck pressure and said shut it off. I cannot drive it.

The pressure would not go over 2.

So the car is at the shop and this is where the story lies right now:

Most likely the other shop removed the oil relief plug thinking it was a drain plug and the piston and spring came out. It went in the oil drain barrel and they just popped it back in without noticing. (Or without knowing what it was).

This would then create the potentially devastating situation of running the engine for a week straight with no more than 2 bars of pressure.

The shop is going to pull that plug Monday and determine that to be the case or not. If the spring and piston are there, I may be having some other issue, but it's almost a certainty that they will not be.

Car symptoms are: Oil pressure not able to breach 2 bars, OEL and brake light on consistently at idle, too much oil (if they did not drain in proper from the plate)

On a side note: This car is a 79 and has a bowed out sump plate with no drain. Mechainic suggested later model oil pump probably (any thoughts on that?)

I will post follow up on Monday when the sage continues.

I meant to say they popped the plug back in without noticing the loss of the piston and spring

i would never, ever, ever let anyone do any work on my 911 unless they knew exactly what they were doing. if i had to tell a shop that there was more than one drain point i would not let them touch my 911. why not go to your trusted mechanic in the first place? looks like saving a few bucks has already been more hassle than it's worth, even before you know the extent of (possible) damage. good luck.

Nineball, yeah, you're correct on all points ! Not sure what i was thinking, guess because it says they work on Porsches, I assumed they could. I'm not sure where things will end up, but the hassle and anticipation is annoying right now.

hopefully it's not some quick-lube style chain. they are the absolute worst to deal with and you will have a mound of paperwork and many moths of fighting ahead of you. my dad went into one for an oil change and while it was draining they asked him what type of oil he regularly used because it was draining out bright red. yep, they drain his tranny instead of the oil pan. my uncle took his newer jag into a quick change place and they raped his drain bolt to the point of me having to use an air chisel to get it out. i avoid them like the plague.

Doesn't feel like much of a "Discount" now, does it?

Sorry for your troubles.

You mentioned to the shop that there were 2 locations to drain out the oil: One on the tank and one on the engine.

Sump plate without a drain plug made them look for a drain and most likely removed the plug for the pressure relieve piston.

May have lost the spring in the process?

Something was obviously done wrong in the first shop and the second shop will confirm whatever. The noises you heard may have come from the tensioners not getting enough pressure or some other part in the engine starved of oil?

You could ask the first "experts" that changed the oil for you how exactly did they drain from the engine? If they didn't remove the sump plate, that's a clue.

If any damage is determined by the second shop, you'll need their statement in writing so you can proceed with further action.

never try to "save" money

I hope your lesson is not too expensive!! I would'nt let 'a quick change place' put air in my tires.. Hopefully, your dipstick didn't end up in the oil tank also.. Good luck.. We all make mistakes, it's just a question of how expensive the lesson becomes..

Gentlemen

There's no need to beat up on the OP. And there's nothing wrong with trying to save a few buck.

-------------------------------------------

FinallyGotOne

I'm sure the experience has taught you something.
Just deal with it the best way you can and get your car back on the road as soon as possible.

Meanwhile... Why not do what I did over 25 years ago and buy yourself a tool kit and start changing your own oil and filter. Do it twice a year and you can't go wrong.
Learn how to do it properly and you'll get a feeling of satisfaction that's so good it's hard to describe and you'll save a few bucks.

Later when you've gained some confidence try doing a valve adjustment.

I hope it works out OK.

not beating up on FinallyGotOne, just sharing some simple words of wisdom from my experience.
I could give a long winded version of a tale of woe that would empathize with him, but it all boils down to that phrase.

i agree with the diy. every now and then these go on sale at harbor freight. i picked one up last year for $30 on sale.

5 Gallon Oil Drain Dolly

Keeping my fingers crossed that no lasting damage was done.

These are 20-40 year-old exotic cars and really need the attention of a specialist, even to drain the oil. My car goes to a factory-trained technician with 20 years of dealer experience and a decade-plus as an independent, Tim Benson of Fastlane Porsche in Santa Cruz California, for everything including oil-changes or even smog certificates. It's an investment in a partnership making sure that he's still in business when I have a real problem.

It might just be too much oil as you said. Most databases at shops say that sc's take 14 quarts of oil, so they put in 14 quarts. But even after emptying from both locations 4 quarts are still left in lines etc. The 1.5 they removed isn't enough. I don't think there should be too big a problem, this happened to me just last month.

Truer words were never spoken! A great perspective that we all can appreciate.

"both locations" i would have mentioned the sump plate and lack of a plug. did you supply the sump plate gasket or even discuss this with them? speedy oil tech needs to know this.

"waited 2 hrs." on site? id have been in their business the entire time if they needed to "do some research". i would have not left a shop doing work that did not have porsche experience, if i was to even consider such a place. not.

when the dude said "both plugs were drained" knowing you had a plug-less sump that would have been a red flag.

you state this was to inform us of potential problems with oil changes done by jiffy lube sort of shops, so this is not to pile on or kick one while he's down. just to inform of the many red flags i see in your journey through this cluster fuch.

best of luck, and i hope its just a matter of a minor fix and a major lesson.

Wow, I don't know how you assess any true damage short of an engine teardown. That shop has no clue what a proper rebuild could cost, if it comes to that.

Oin Changes
 

Many years ago My wife took the family van to a oil change specialist. On the way home the van stalled. Seems the technician drained the oil but forgot to put any in! I hope you did not go to that guy! The good news, they did not hesitate to put a new engine in. Of course a Dodge van engine does not cost what a Porsche engine does. Good luck.

My friend has an 89 930. He wanted to put Brad Penn oil in and we had no place to do it. Went to Walmart and they did it. We were all over their procedure but the "kids" that worked there double checked what we told them to do against their procedural system. This place should have had reference information.

I am no hydraulic engineer but if any oil was flowing I bet your engine will be ok.

I can top that. My father brought his Chrysler to one of those quicky oil change places and not only did they forget to put new oil in, they didn't even reinstall the drain plug! He got about 1/4 mile away and realized there was a problem.

FinallyGotOne-- sorry to hear about your bad experience. We are all newbies at some point, and we all learn at least some lessons the hard way. (Ask me about my first marriage.)

Were I a gambling man, I'd bet that your engine is just fine. It'll need someone who is familiar with the 911 to set it to rights, as you thought, and having a pro give it the once-over will give you some peace of mind. But in my humble opinion, unless you spent a week at the track, or did a gumball run across 20 states, seven days of tooling around with ~25-30lbs oil pressure will not have done any noticeable damage. Unless the "weird noises" you mention were a terrifying series of loud knocks followed by the tinkling of magnesium hitting concrete... which seems unlikely.

PaulGTR: congratulations on increasing your post count. Yeesh.

Well, I did work at a shop in California whose main focus was to rebuild engines. I never thought I was the completely ignorant type when it came to mechanics. However, I am rethinking that all the time with this little 911 of mine!

I did not just wait for 2 hours and leave. I waited in the lobby through the whole time. Now a lot of you think me moronic because you would never do what i did. thats cool I have learned my lesson, and hope someone out there like me will re-think their plans to do what i did.

Honestly, a 1979 is supposed to have two drain locations, and one of them is supposed to be on the sump plate, am I correct in that? I am a bit curious why mine has just the bowed out sump plate? Is that a modification? this 911 does have the carrera tensioners, does that go hand in hand with the different sump plate?

This was NOT a speedy lube place at all. But as I said I do not think I should share that info yet. It's not fair to them especially if I have no troubles or they cover any repairs.

My P shop I trust 100%, They are one of the best in my region. The other shop has taken their number and they will be talking. Last time I checked my oil (Yesterday) yes while it was warmed up and running, the oil was in the middle of the dipstick. An interesting point was that the engine oil was quite cool to the touch.

I'd like to hear more about my 79SC having a different sump plate??

at Joe Bob.I did not say there were two drain plugs, only two locations. They used a WIX filter. I actually did not notice the lack of druck pressure. Joe Bob: they are the ones who are the certified mechanics, not me. And usually shops will not let you in the work area due to their insurance. (that is what I have heard anyway)

I think the name of the shop, unless they were an independent advertising themselves as knowledgable in Porsches, is a moot point. Or a Porsche dealer.

Since you apparently have a Porsche mechanic, some of the repercussion from taking it elsewhere for the oil change is on your shoulders. I don't know that I would have waited patiently for two hours without going into the shop to see what was going on, even if I wasn't specifically knowledgeable on 911's.

Their responsibility is that if their "research" on how to change oil was inconclusive, they should have waved the white flag. I can just see three guys there, googling "oil change 911".

A lot of engines don't have drain plugs you have to remove the sump plate, that way you also check and clean the screen, aka 912 and VW.

We all learn ... need to figure out if the spring is missing and start from sq 1 . If it is then "OK" don't sign a waiver or release of concern .




This handy device would only be useful to the few with hoists or really tall jackstands

I agree. Do it yourself. I have 5 cars. I change the oil on every single one. I don't need a factory tech to tell me - pull drain plug. catch oil. Replace gasket. replace plug.

Not that I'm a genius. The first time I did the 911, I pulled the plug with the pop-off in it. Whoops. At least I caught it and put it back though.

Pelican sells all the parts and tools you need for this.

Amazon.com sells Brad Penn

Buy a 15 quart drain pan.

I second what another poster said that the engine is probably fine. On Miata board, I saw people post that they had inadvertently run with like 1 quart oil at ridiculously low pressure and engine was somehow fine. An engineer said engine can stayed lubed with flow even at low pressure and survive. 911s may be different of course. On any board, you will see anecdotes about the quicky oil change places doing stuff like overtorquing and stripping oil pan threads, forgetting to refill oil, etc. Can happen even at specialist places. A colleague with a Mini had the dealer drain and forget to refill coolant. Driving home he saw temp shoot to H and stopped right away and rad was dry. Car was fine fortunately.

If somebody drove a Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche or the Space Shuttle into my business, I would dam sure make sure that I did the job correctly. I've worked on cars that I had no experience with, and used the internet to get the necessary knowledge to do the job. I have yet to feck one up (knock on wood).

In this day and age, there is little excuse for incompetence.

That is redundant.

FinallyGotOne,
thanks for sharing your experience...it just may save someone trouble.
When I first got my car, I had a local shop change the oil. I brought the oil and filter. They had it done in about 5 minutes. I asked the tech how much oil it took and he said only about 4 qts. drained out...forgot the sump. Another twenty minutes and the job was complete..but...they overfilled it. We drained about two quarts out and I was on my way.
I have NEVER had another mechanic touch the car since that day. I do everything myself now.

Nobody touches my car,asides maybe for a wheel alignment and then again it would have to be a shop with a heck of a lot of good references ...

I've heard too many horror stories arising from them Jiffy Lube or similar outlets,and that's just from people i know personally !
If you don't see any Porsches in the parking lot,keep driving ... lol

Cheers !
Phil

Just to clarify.

Druck mean pressure in German. Öl mean oil.

gauge actually says druck pressure

I sure hope everything works out for you here. If it were me, I would have this nasty know it my gut worried about what I did. But that's me.

Anyway, my horror story.

Several years back, I took my Miata in to a quickie oil change place to have the radiator flush. I would have done it my self if I had a place to do it. So, after they gave me the keys back, I drove it home the 2 miles and parked it in the garage. I was off for a great day at the ball park. The next day I was out on the highway when the engine started to smoke and knock. The gauges were showing that the engine was over heating and the power was dropping fast. Once I was pulled over and had the hood open, I noticed that the radiator cap was loose. I opened it up to find it empty.

Anyway, several months later of dealing with these people and thousands of dollars in repairs, I was back on the road. I did file suit and they settled out of court for the full amount.

These are the 2 gaskets, one on each side of the sump plate needed when removing it for an oil change:

930-101-391-01-M17 Oil Strainer Plate Gasket (2 per car, sold individually), 911 (1974-83)
Brand: Victor Reinz [More Info] $3.75

If the shop didn’t remove the plate, some old oil remained behind. Also, when the plate is removed, the strainer screen is examined for debris, cleaned and re-installed:

930-107-314-00-M253 Engine Oil Sump Screen, 911 (1965-83), 911 Turbo (1976-77)
Brand: Uro Parts [More Info] $39.25

You could buy this nice kit from Pelican that includes everything you need to convert your plain sump plate without drain plug to one with a drain plug:

MCD-930-107-001-00 Oil Sump Plate Kit w/Drain Plug, 911 1965-83 [More Info] $81.55

It is important for the sump plate to be installed in a certain position to ensure that the pick-up for the oil pump is able to suck oil meaning: plug is on the left side.
Get a Bentley SC Repair Manual and learn more about your SC; you’re not doing a good job looking after it now that you “FinallyGotOne”.

Letting any old shop to bungle a simple oil change slapping on a generic filter and leaving a lot of dirty oil in is pretty poor as is driving for a week with low oil pressure and noise. :rolleyes:

Get a sump with a plug and the Bentley and give the SC better maintenance. SmileWavy

One label is in German and the other in English....

Just to be "fer sure fer sure" as they say in the San Fernando Valley! :D

I have never taken my Porsche to a quick lube place but have taken my numerous trucks to them over the years(decades) without a problem. I do pay attention however to what they are doing. I think saying they are all bad is an unfair generalization.

FinallyGotOne- hope all works out OK for you. Keep us posted on your saga.

Now for my story, thank heavens not the 911 or one of the BMW's. Took my ex's Explorer V8 to a well known and respected local quick change place, one that does a lot of imports. Oil techs there are all pretty knowledgable folks, 2 of them work as techs at a local tuner weekdays and here on weekends for extra mod money. Anyway, pull the SUV into the bay, they start out draining the oil and pulling the filter while I'm still telling the manager to use the Fram oil filter rather than their cheaper off-brand part. And fill with Mobil1 5W30 please. He pulls out 6 qts of oil, and the filter, puts the filter on the ground for the guy in the pit, and the oil on the cowling. While the manager is showing me my "dirty" air filter (a washable K&N) I watch the tech pour the 5.5 qts into the engine, then get in the car and ask the guy in the pit if he's clear. He's getting ready to turn the key and I see the filter still sitting on the ground and yell to stop. Yup, they forgot to put the filter on. Tragedy averted, and lots of apologies from the manager. And all this took less than 10 minutes. And yes, these are knowledgable guys who build 350hp turbo 4 cylinders during the week. Needless to say I've done the oil changes myself for her since then.