The heck with E10, lets go to E20!

[brads911sc]

On a CIS system with Lambda, is the system automatically running richer (auto compensating)? or are a bunch of guys out there running lean without knowing it?

What about Motronic?

Originally Posted by safe

Good post Brad.
Ethanol blends are bad ass when it comes to super charging.
For example the Koenigsegg CCXR develops 806 hp on gas and 1018 hp on E85.

There are 2 issues with ethanol blends.
1. You need to richen the mixture on flesystems that can't do it on their own.
2. Some components may not be resistant to ethanol.

But ethanol is GOOD for performance, higher octane, cools the charge better due to more fuel being added and it burns cooler than gasoline.
The last must be very good in an aircooled engine.

[turbobrat930]

Magnus, Thanks for the kind words.

I also agree with you whole heartedly about the Enviornmental benefits are questionable. It takes a large amount of energy not to mention corn or other energy source to make the E- fuels. It is clean burning, but it takes an aweful lot of energy to make it.
They do have unleaded race fuels, but a majority of the really high octane fuels are leaded (Tetraethal Lead), which is also very bad for the enviornment...

And yes, it is very bad to cut down rain forests in order to grow the corn to make this fuel. Enthanol can be made from other things besides sugarcane and corn. Hopefully, in the future, it will be made from other forms that wont be so bad.

[turbobrat930]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

On a CIS system with Lambda, is the system automatically running richer (auto compensating)? or are a bunch of guys out there running lean without knowing it?

I would guess they would be running lean...

[GothingNC]

How much more will the fuel economy drop with E10 vs. E20?

[GothingNC]

Found this

HowStuffWorks "E85 Ethanol Flex Fuel Overview"

Run a new V6 Chevrolet Impala on good-old gasoline, and it'll get 21 miles per gallon in the city, 31 on the highway, according to Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimates. Burn E85 -- a blend of 85 percent of the alcohol-based fuel ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, which American automakers flaunt as their latest alternative-energy idea -- and the Impala's EPA numbers shrivel to 16 mpg city, 23 highway.

[safe]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

On a CIS system with Lambda, is the system automatically running richer (auto compensating)? or are a bunch of guys out there running lean without knowing it?

What about Motronic?

Good question, I'm not sure how the lambda CIS works. The KE-Jet I have in my Audi 100 will tollerate a 50/50 mix of E85/E5, at least it runs OK when used as "normal" car.

Most EFI systems, like the Motronic, only runs on lambda up to a certain rpm/load then it runs on the "program" in the chip, lika WOT map.
An E10 blend is no problem, but like E20 might get lean on WOT.

[turbobrat930]

Once again, this would be used with an aftermarket EFI system, but it would be nice if for a few hundred bucks, if a company could come up with a small piggy back computer utilizing this sensor, making your car a flex fuel vehicle....

Here is the sensor.. GM

Zeitronix ECA : SEMA Award Winning Ethanol Content Analyzer and Flex Fuel Sensor for E-85 and E-85/gasoline Blends

[turbobrat930]

Originally Posted by GothingNC

How much more will the fuel economy drop with E10 vs. E20?

Well, its about 30 to 35% more fuel to get the same power from E-85 than from premium pump gas. So, I would say a 10% drop in economy from E-10 to E-20 Just a guess, but a logical one

[GothingNC]

How are the automakers going to meet the future CAFE standards for fuel economy if the EPA keeps pushing for higher amounts of Ethanol which in turn drives down the MPG.

Might as well go the EV route and call it a day...

[HarryD]

If you designing an engine/fuel delivery system from scratch, you are free to use any fuel you deem fit (E0, E10, E20, E85, B0, B5, Biofuel, french perfume etc).

The more variable the fuel, the more complex the fuel metering system to enure proper air/fuel ratios at ALL operating regimes.

That said, car makers do not want to design and offer a fuel delivery system that can run on anything that burns since this is too expensive and complex to mass manufacture. Instead, they pick a fuel (E0, E10, E20, E85, B0, B5, Biofuel, french perfume etc) and then design a fuel delivery system that is optimized to use it most effectively.

The real problem is when you want to torture a vehicle to run on, say French Perfume, when it was designed for E0. As noted above, it can be done but you need to remap the Air/fuel ratios. If you have carbs, you will need to rejet. If you have a decent EFI System, you will need new maps. With CIS, MFI or early EFI systems you are screwed.

To get the best operability in the widest number of expected operating regimes, this is expensive due to the time to map these regimes and program them to not conflict (think 1,000's of hours of dyno time). Failure to do this work can lead to shortened engine life due to excessively lean mixtures or damaged catalysts due to excessively rich exhaust gases.

Those of you with tunable ECU's, how much time did you spend tuning the system and does it work in ALL operating regimes (cold start, hot start, throttle transitions, low temperatures, high temperatures altitude changes etc)?

[MichiganMike]

By the time America gets comfortable with ethanol, the U.S. will be moving towards other options such as biobutanol: Butamax

Also. here is an article of a newer Porsche owner who runs E85 on his beast: 1st 700WHP Corn Fed (E85) Porsche! We like to call her the Corn Horse! - 6speedonline.com Forums

[tobluforu]

I'm about to make the jump to corn on my Saab viggen, but will be running a flex fuel map. I'm lucky as I have an e85 station about 1 mile away and with the mods on my car now, I should see about an extra 25whp once the maps are complete. I think the biggest benefit in regards to hp when using corn is for cars that have turbo's, no way I would spend any extra money trying to get a car that is not a turbo running corn as I really don't see the benefit, yet.