3 pt harness ok for DEs?

[BK911]

Anybody know for sure? I have used them before but I was always solo. Now I am being forced to run in the green group (which should be fun!), so I will have an instructor with me.

The PCA regs state ANY harness must have a sub belt. Which obviously a 3 pt does not have.

But... a 3 pt harness with a harness bar and fixed race bucket is still better than stock.

So, do I put back in the stock reclining seats and stock seat belts?
Or keep the 3 pt system?
Or upgrade to a 5 or 6 pt system with roll bar?

[HarryD]

You will need to check with your event organizer as to what is ok and what is not. ther is wide variation between groups as to what is ok.

Some things to consider:

A three point belt system is NOT a harness.

A three point belt with a harness bar is typically not a legal installation.

In most cases a three point belt system used with a race seat does not improve safety as the 3 point belts are not designed to be used with a race seat.

The harness system used must be compatible with the Race Seat and harness bar.

This is a complicated issue. Some quality time with the organizer will sort this out.

[BK911]

Thanks Harry. Just to clarify, I am talking about this:

[Driver8]

PCA minimum requirements for DE can be found at
Minimum Standards

#4 talks about seat belts

I would go with a roll bar and 5-6 pt harnesses.

[James Brown]

More confusion, if you go with a 5-6 point and a roll bar/cage, you need head and neck restraint, HANS device and full face helmet. (and fire suit/shoes/gloves, window net).....

[dad911]

Originally Posted by James Brown

More confusion, if you go with a 5-6 point and a roll bar/cage, you need head and neck restraint, HANS device and full face helmet. (and fire suit/shoes/gloves, window net).....

JB - Care to document where you got that info? Surely a race organization, not a DE.

@BK - I don't know that a 3 point system will be legal with any organization. I've never seen it used before. Lap belts need a sub-belt.

[Trackrash]

This is a complicated question. It sounds like you have some homework to do.

It has as much to do with the car class due to modifications as it does with the organization you intend to play with.

Is your car "stock", improved, or modified? Will it be used for DEs or PCA Club racing?

Check all the rules. PCA (your zone), SCCA, POC, and NASA.

There are lots of threads on cages, seats, and harnesses.

Good luck.

[BK911]

Thanks guys. I have read numerous threads but could not find anything about the 3pt harness. I would hate to have to remove what I have to install the stock seats and seatbelts, which are allowed but not as good as what I currently have.

I have an email in so we shall see what The Man says.

[BK911]

I just got an email back from the de chair. Pca does not allow 3 point harness. So I can upgrade to a 5 or 6 point harness. Or I can put back the stock reclinable low back seats and 35 year old retractable seat belts. Seems silly I have to downgrade to meet the rule requirements. But rules are rules.

[James Brown]

Harness Systems: If the participant chooses to install a 5- or 6-point driving harness several changes to the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must include a antisubmarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner consistent the manufacturer’s instructions. The Harness system must be used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and antisubmarine belts. All pieces of the restraint system must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and anti-submarine straps. The shoulder straps should be mounted at 90 degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from horizontal. Because the addition of the harness system means that the occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Due to UV degradation and wear the harness webbing must be replaced every five years.
The Harness system must be used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. All pieces of the restraint system must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and antisubmarine straps. The shoulder straps should be mounted at 90 degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from horizontal.
Because the addition of the harness system means that the occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. If installed, roll bars or cages and their installation must meet PCA Club Racing standards.
Four point systems are not allowed in Porsches because of the integrated headrest supplied by the factory. In addition to the standard SFI and/ or FIA approved 5- and/or 6-point system, a 4-point system is allowed in non-Porsches that meet the following requirements:
- Meets the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 209.
- Attaches to the factory seat belt mounting points.
- Each belt is designed to work in a specific vehicle and that vehicle tag must be attached to the belt system.
An example of a system that meets the above criteria is the Schroth Quick Fit system.

these are the MINIMUM DE standards for seat belts. Regional requirements might be stricter.

[James Brown]

Oh yeah, there is this rule also:
Equal Restraints: Both student and instructor shall have the same restraint system. All vehicles must be equipped with a properly installed lap and shoulder restraint system.

[jrobb911]

You may look into a 4 point schroth system. The anti submarining feature of the schroth belt will be ok. I use a harness bar to pass the belts over and connect to the rear belt bolts. You cannot use this setup with stock "lollypop" style seats.

[TroyN]

4-points are not ok for PCA; min 5-points.

[BK911]

I am going with 6 point harness and harness bar, until I find a good roll bar. Das sport list theirs for '74 - '89. Anybody know of a good bolt in roll bar for a '73?

[911pcars]

Read the PCA rules. 5-pt. harnesses and a roll bar/cage are optional, not mandatory for DE.

Sherwood