Emissions people got me

[Scott R]

I have a card from the DMV here that I failed some roadside e-test and now even with "classic" plates I have to smog again. This represents a huge problem for me. My engine as it's configured has no chance of ever passing Colorado emissions as an 80' SC.

I basically had a race type motor built for what I use as a street car. And while it's a lot of fun I'm going to have to do something major to pass an e-test. My options are as follows:

1. Remove carbs and SSI's, install CIS (will need a few new parts for the CIS) and original exhaust with cat.

2. Try and file for an exception, from my conversation with the state this is very difficult.

3. Trade my new engine for a used 3.2 and associated computer. This would be bolting to my new 915 so it's not a bad option.

What would you guys do? Keep in mind with the engine everything attached to it is new as well, from the fuel pump to the motor mounts, all of it.

[porschenut]

Holy crap, that is really unfortunate. I thought the whole point of collector plates was to avoid having to be subject to emissions tests! If the e-test robots are going to ambush you anyway, we're all screwed.

I would take whatever option is cheapest, though I don't think either 1 or 3 is going to be cheap. Are you thinking of making the switch permanent? What will you do with your new carbed engine?

[Jgordon]

If I were an unethical person, I'd ask if you know anyone with a similar looking porsche. Or whether you know any friendly emissions testing people.

Good thing I'm not unethical.

[McLovin]

Smog test in a can!



Finding someone with a car that looks like yours to pass the test with won't work, unless that car happens to share the same VIN.

I know people can sometimes find "crooked" smog shops, but IMO that's not as easy as most make it out to be. The fines are huge, they risk losing their license (and thus making their big $$ smog equipment useless), etc., all for what? To make $200?

As to your questions, first need to know: Does this mean your car needs to be regularly smogged, if so, how often? Or is it a "one time" thing?

[Matt Monson]

About 2 years ago the state of Colorado stopped using the little on-ramp trucks to just pre-pass people who were coming up on smog tests in the near future. Now they are also used as a dragnet to capture gross polluters. They found that there were a lot of people seeking harbour under vintage collector plates on vehicles that were just old and not actually collector cars. You aren't the first person I know who has gotten zinged in their hot rod.

Looking at your list of potential solutions, my first suggestion would be to put a stock exhaust on there with a good catalytic converter. In my frequent visits to the DMV in recent years I have found that a good properly functioning cat will do more to make the car run clean than anything else. I would try that first before you go to any other more extreme measures. Change the exhaust and then put the leanest tune onto the carbs that you can. Get an LM-1 and figure out the AFs and spend a little time getting it right. If you fail after that, you may need to resort to more extreme measures.

And for those talking about "crooked smog shops", here in Colorado all of the facilities are state run. And we've got to put the car on a dyno and under a real load. It's one of the most extensive tests in the country and definitely rivals good old California for strictness.

[cgarr]

License the car in another state

[RWebb]

don't do anything stupid (illegal) like the post just above suggests or #3

also no can of stuff is gonna qualify you

you need to carefully study what the laws are for the "classic" plates; what can happen if you fail the inspection & etc.

I dunno Colo. law but it is -possible- that you can go for an inspection and [a] they let you off or give you xx months to qualify. Ask about what happens if you fail a re-test. If re-tests can be done repeatedly then a nice cat that lacks the fast warm up features might be [b]; [c] would be a full add-on cat system.

Next up is [d] a 3.2L swap.

You generally will want to spend as little time & $$ as you can to qualify; tho a nice [e] 3.6L will make all sorts of good things happen.

[yelcab1]

If I were in love with that set up, I would buy a used running 80SC engine, swap it out, run the test, then swap it back.

Yes, it is a lot of work ...

[Scott R]

Matt is dead on, the shops here are government run and I believe after talking to the smog referee today that I'm definitely being tagged under the new vintage laws. The law was changed from 1983 I think to 1975 now. I'm going to have to get regular plates now and smog once a year for the next five years.

I would go on a rant about this, but I doubt it will do me any good, or anyone reading this. So I do need a somewhat permanent solution for this, unless I move of course.

So the 3.2 seemed like a good choice as it will get me by for the next five years and I have a brand new trasaxel in the car. Next would be try putting the CIS and the cat back on I suppose.

I have an LM1 that I use and I also own a three gas analyzer so the car is dialed in to the best jetting I can get for afr's at my altitude. The problem is the 80' SC has a factory CO limit of 0.7 for the US version which will be impossible to do on carbs as far as I know.

I was thinking of selling my 3.0L which is under warranty, was built by a known professional, is full documented and runs perfectly without leaks or any oil consumption. Then take the cash and get a decent 3.2 motronic, or just trade it to someone wanting a track motor for their car.

The situation sucks, but it is what it is.

[Dixie]

Easy...


Move.

[cgarr]

Well if you want to go by the book I guess your sol, swapin parts and engines aint gunna cut it either then, remember we are going by the book! I guess that car will never drive in CO what a bunch of BS

Sorry I need to go crack another can of R12

[McLovin]

There's no visual/equipment requirement? (i.e., they don't check that the car has all the smog equipment that it was originally equipped with). All they do is take a measurement of the exhaust emissions?

[Jim Sims]

My understanding of the Colorado law is that once cited there are 90 days to fix the emissions problem. If this is not done, the registration is pulled and then the police can tow/impound the car. There are nearly 100,000 cars in Colorado using the collector plates and if a significant number are tampered with or poorly maintained gross polluters, I'm not the least bit surprised by this development/extension of roadside monitoring. My one experience with a vintage 911/collector's plates and Colorado emissions testing is that a properly tuned engine in good order and with OEM emissions equipment intact can readily pass. I think the collector's plate "end run around emissions testing" is over.

[Jgordon]

Ah. In NY, the shops are mostly (all?) independent, and they just scan the registration sticker in the windshield. Which, if one were unethical and crafty, could be swapped along with the plates.

Not promoting the idea, just explaining.

[tcar]

The other issue is the visual check.

If someone is sharp they 'might' have a problem with the 3.2 even (doubtful).

On my 79 SC, they actually checked to make sure that the smog pump was there. Had a friend that failed because of that, and he had to borrow a pump, bracket and belt to make it look functional.

At least, with an '80, the pump is not an issue.

Given that you have to check every year now, going for the 3.2 with a cat. Permanantly. Seems the best idea

Too late for Scott, but you can check this when you drive your collector car to make sure that you don't get nailed. It changes every week. They have a LOT of vans.

Rapid Screen - Van Locations

[RWebb]

If I have this right, you modded the car in a way that did not meet the THEN existing smog regs, but at the time there was no testing (no effective testing anyway). Later, the state instituted this testing regime which the modded motor has no hope of passing.

If true, then there is no way for you to challenge it.

Sorry to hear this, but it sounds like your best bet is to step up to a 3.6L for lottsa fun, or to a 3.2L. I would avoid CIS. It is going to have a lot of trouble if Et-OH levels rise, and the throttle response is not that great anyway.

One more idea - see if there is not some other sort of historic or limited use registration that would work for you.

It's too bad nobody makes an add-on package for your motor with high flow cats, like Porsche uses on their new cars.

You might want to store the motor for a year or two - prices may rise; also if hybrids and electrics make an impact on air quality, then it would make sense to relax some of the old car regs.

BTW - a lot of the Calif. guys who have been evading the smog laws in various illegal ways, are going to get some unpleasant surprises soon.

[tcar]

CO is NOT going to relax the rules in the future. They need money and they make fistfulls more this way.

It was possible to get the car passed (82 and older) then modify it. There was no future smog check. You had to pay a fee every 5 years, that's it. Had to be re-smogged if sold, though.

They just changed the law (to increase cash flow, mostly) to 74 and older only. Now 75 and newer has to get checked EVERY year unless grandfathered and not caught like Scott.

[Schwarzeritter]

This is nothing new in California. I get people all the time who get into all sorts of trouble, and some of the Porsche and BMW owners aren't even passing with factory settings.

1. I would make an apointment with the DMV, since I should think that you should be grandfatherd in. Since your vehicle was under the old law and this is a new law. Then again I don't know all of the Colorado state laws and how the state views things.

2. If that fails, I would go to the court explain the situation and ask to be grandfatherd in.
Some states simply are open about modifications, and only care if a given vehicle will pass.
Some states such as California will look at every aspect of the vehicles emissions devices etc.

3. The Refs in California are strict, but sometimes they can help.

4. Talk to a supervision, or someone who actually knows whats going on. I am sure you have some sort of EPA or DOT board in Colorado that you can contact.

[HarryD]

Go and get smart.

Research for your self the laws about the use of vintage/historic plates. Check on the rulemaking that changed the law to see if grandfathering was included inthe intent. All of this is public record and you should be able to read what it says. Once you have convinced yourself that you are ok, go to DMV with copies ofhte laws/rule making etc and ask for a high level person to explian to you why the law is not being interpreted correctly.

Failing this, call the court house and ask for some help from a Judge or their clerk. You may find a sympathetic ear.

Does you car club have a member who is an attorney or maybe a judge? I would ask them as well.

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by Scott R

The problem is the 80' SC has a factory CO limit of 0.7 for the US version which will be impossible to do on carbs as far as I know.

Sorry to hear of your predicament.

Thinking outside the box here...can you "backdate" your chassis (or perhaps just the VIN plate) to an earlier model that is subject to less stringent standards. Here in NJ, an old car like my '79 has to pass the standards that applied to it when it was built...that means I just have to pass a sniffer test at idle (no rollers, or higher rpm/under load). Going back just a year or two from 1980 and these cars did not have lambda control (true for turbos at least) and I think the CO requirement for mine is something like 3.0% vs. tenths of a percent for the 80's

I think i'd be screwed if mine were newer, but as it is, it passes without the thermal reactors, air pump or other misc emission crap here in NJ. We might not be as bad as Cali or Colorado, but I think NJ is known to be pretty strict.

Maybe you can find a totalled chassis for the VIN?