Electrical Gurus Please? Flag mirror issues

[cwinters01]

Hello:
Background - 83 911sc, still working on getting some 86-89 flag mirrors hooked up and running. I've read every single post that I can find in the forum related to flag mirror wiring, but nothing for my issues.

My question are:

1) on the toggle switch operation for moving the mirrors directionally.

I have a white wire off the switch that goes to the mirror that I believe is supposed to move the mirrors horizontally. When I check voltage off this wire while moving the joystick, I get 12.6 on both left and right, nothing up and down.

I have blue wire off the switch that goes to the mirror that I believe is supposed to move the mirrors vertically (?). When I check voltage off this wire while moving the joystick, I get 12.6 while moving the joystick down and right, but nothing up and nothing left... I would have expected to get 12.6 on both up and down and nothing left or right.

2)Finally, when I hook the mirror itself up I can actually get left/right/up/down movement off the mirror (depending on the other wires I hook up from the mirror), but never only left and right, or up and down. and it only works off the blue wire referenced above...not when I try to power off of the white wire mentioned above...

Can someone who's good with this stuff help me out? It would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you very much ahead of time.
Christian

[jmod]

Hi Christian,

Sounds like your wiring is operating correctly for an SC.

1) The white wire tells the mirror whether you are in the up/down or left/right plane.

The blue wire is one half of the motor drive circuit. The black wire is the other part.

When you get nothing on the blue it is because the black will be 12.6v and the blue is ground (or negative).

2) If your later flag mirrors have two separate drive motors, then the SC wiring is not compatible with those mirrors. There are some threads that talk about a relay that separates the existing SC wiring into two separate motor circuits.

Basically when the white wire has no voltage the blue and black drive one of the motors (say left/right). When the white has 12v a relay sends the blue/black motor drive to the up/down motor.

[cwinters01]

Thank you very much Jim, I really do appreciate the response. I believe that my car has been updated to take the newer mirrors based on the way everything is wired, but I could be wrong on that...
I'll get out an play with it some more with this information.
Thank you again Jim,
Christian

[arbita1]

Do you have a black/yellow wire off of the switch?

[cwinters01]

Hi Arbita, I have the black and yellow off the switch from passenger to driver mirror... that black and yellow runs to the driver's side only...

[jmod]

Hi,

One of the motor drive circuits is Blue + Black/yellow for the drivers side and blue + black for the passenger side.

The key is the second motor circuit. If it comprises the white + brown in the way you have described, it sounds stock. That is not necessarily a problem. If it worked at one time, there is the possibility that the later flag mirrors themselves may have already been modified with the inclusion of an additional relay.

How did you end up with the later style flag mirrors? Did you remove the original SC flag mirrors? Did they work previously?

[cwinters01]

Hi Jim,
Thank you. I bought the car in '99 and the mirrors never worked. It wasn't until a couple of weeks ago that I decided to tackle the many electrical issues with the car. When I pulled the mirrors, the harness was hanging free as bare wires in the door and I determined that the mirrors corresponded to the 87-89 mirrors that our host sells (944-731-027-01-M415).
When I compare the wiring of the car though, it doesn't itself compare to what Bentely has for the 83. In Bentely, the 83 doesn't appear to have a switch over from driver to passenger...at least the wiring diagram in the manual doesn't have a switch. That led me to believe that my car had been updated? As I look at it, it appears to be some kind of hybrid between what I have seen from the Bentely manual for 84-85 and 86-89.
The switch from driver to passenger in my car has 3 prongs: 1 - black yellow goes to driver mirror, 2 - blue goes to passenger mirror, 3 - green goes to toggle switch.
Here actually is all of the wiring for the mirrors that I diagramed out (the numbers in parenthesis are the ones that I think connect to one another):

Toggle Switch Connects To:
brown (2)
blue (1)
green (3)
white (4)
black with purple stripe fuse

Driver Side Harness in door
white X 2 (4)
blue (1)
black (5)
grey with green stripe (6)
black with yellow stripe (7)
brown (2)

Left/Right Switch
green (3)
blue (8)
black with yellow stripe (7)

Passenger side harness in door
brown (2)
blue (8)
white (4)
grey with green stripe (6)
black (5)

Drivers side harness in trunk
white (4)
brown (into middle of harness) (2)
black (5)
green (3)
grey with green stripe (6)
black with purple stripe
black with yellow stripe (7)

Passenger harness in trunk
blue (8)
white (4)
black (5)
grey with green stripe (6)
brown (not in middle of harness) (2)

[jmod]

Hi Christian,

Sounds a lot like what I found when I looked at my non-functioning mirrors except mine were the later aero mirrors.

Could you confirm the part number of the toggle switch that is fitted? There are two types. You will also see a color code on the switch. Some pins have two colors so the factory must have had a few loom changes.

[cwinters01]

Hi Jim,
I had a look and there is no actual part number or color coding on the directional mirror toggle switch...is that what you were referring to? The only writing on the switch is:
IKJ Made in Holland

Are you referring to the wires going into the switch?
Brown X2
Green
Blue
White
black with purple stripe fuse

[jmod]

Hi Christian,

Could you confirm your left/right switch colors.

You have listed them as:-

Left/Right Switch
green (3)
blue (8)
black with yellow stripe (7)

Is the blue correct or should that be black?

[cwinters01]

Hi Jim,
Thank you. Yes, I understand why you are asking the question. The wiring diagram for 86-89 shows the left right switch having two blacks off of the switch, one to each mirror. Another reason I think that mine has been tinkered with...

I tested the continuity off of each of the wires...there is a blue and it does go to the passenger side only. and the black/yellow only goes to the driver side...

I should also mention the mirror coloring coming off of the mirror motor:
brown X2
Black
White
White with brown stripe
Brown with white stripe

Thank you for your help Jim!

Christian

[jmod]

Hi,

I can see why it is a bit of a challenge!

Best start at the toggle switch. The blue and green are the two wires that form the main motor drive circuit.

I suggest you do some continuity checks to find out what colors they become at the drivers side mirror connection. When you connect these two wires to a motor you should be able to drive the mirror up/down or left/right - depending on which motor you connect to.

It looks as though the green wire becomes blue (at the left right switch) and returns to the drivers side mirror. Blue is not listed in your drivers side harness in trunk so there must be some wire swaps. I would ignore the brown and grey/green stripe for the time being. They should be your heater/defog circuit (with any luck).

[wwest]

My '78 Targa and my '88 Carrera have entirely different mirror motor drive mechanisms internally. I seem to remember having to use a relay inside the mirror housing when I installed later version ('88?) mirrors on my '78.

As I remember it the '88 has individual drive motors for each motion, vertical vs horizontal. The '78 uses a single motor with a solenoid escapement.

I also seem to remember that part of the problem was that turning on the rear window and side mirror heat would result in the driver side mirror being driven downward.

[jmod]

Hi,

I agree, had to do the same thing with my SC to get the aero mirrors to work. Ultimately I think a relay will be needed but cwinters01's wiring seems to have been messed up by the PO. Some investigation is needed to work out the baseline, so the mod can be made to a known wiring arrangement.

Once the basic functions work, a relay can be added that will be triggered by the white and brown circuit to switch the motor drive to the other motor.

[cwinters01]

Hi Jim and WWest, thank you very much. Such great information and I greatly appreciate you taking the time! I'm likely not going to get back into the car until Sunday (legoland tomorrow with the boy), but I will now check out where the green and blue leads to in the driver side door wiring and report out.
Thank you again and Happy New Year to you Gents!
Christian

[cwinters01]

Hi Jim,
I took a look at the green wire that runs from the directional toggle to the driver/passenger mirror switch. Current runs properly between the toggle and the switch based on the wiring diagram for a 86-89 mirror (below).
Based on the diagram, I think that I have all the right wiring for the 86-89 mirrors, I just can't seem to get all of the wiring in the car to work with the mirrors themselves...
1)Green from toggle goes to driver/passenger switch
2)White off of toggle to driver side door, then crosses over to passenger side door
3)Blue off of toggle to driver side door, then connects to a black that crosses over to passenger side door
4)Black with yellow stripe runs from driver/passenger switch to drivers side door
5)Blue from driver/passenger switch goes to passenger side door
6)Brown from toggle goes to drivers side/ground...
7)Black with violet stripe goes from toggle to fuse

How to hook all this up to the mirror wiring is my problem. Mirror wiring: BrownX2, White, Black, Brown with white stripe, and white with brown stripe...?
Below is also a picture of the motor for the mirrors that match the part number for the 86-89 mirrors...shouldn't these be the right mirrors to work with the wiring above and in the shown diagram?
Hopefully my uploads work and thank you for your help!

[jmod]

Hi Christian,

Below is a diagram from the 944 manual which is a better match for your mirrors.

I don't trust the Bentley diagram. The first picture clearly shows two mirror motors which means that your mirrors will not work with that wiring config.

There is also another thread running at the moment on 964/993 aero mirrors which is looking at the same type of thing.

I will draw out the circuit and send it to you later today.

[jmod]

Hi Christian,

Based on the information in your posts and the 944 style mirrors, I have drawn what I think is the arrangement. You will probably need to experiment with swapping the mirror motor wires around to get a good match between the toggle and motor direction. Based on the information I have, the wiring arrangements are my best guess.

I think you will need a small 12v coil Single Pole Double Throw (SPDT) relay to make it work properly and I have shown it in the circuit just after the toggle switch (left hand side of drawing).

If you don't want to modify the loom in the drivers door, you can add two relays, (one at each mirror) to achieve the same ends and maintain totally stock main wiring.

To test it, wiring it up without the relay and white wire connected. You should be able to move the mirror in one direction (either up/down or left/right) on each door.

[cwinters01]

Jim,
I really can't thank you enough! Absolutely above and beyond the call of duty...I sincerely owe you one.
I don't mind adjusting away from stock wiring. It appears that I can order the "12v coil Single Pole Double Throw (SPDT) relay" online, so I'll get one ordered.
Based on what you have drawn, I see that the blue off of the toggle hooks to the switch on the new relay. The white attaches to one end of the coil and brown to the other.
My question is on the brown wire. That brown should just be the brown dropping into the door harness from the toggle, right? And are you saying to split it off so that one split goes to the relay coil, and the other split goes to the driver side mirror?
Apologize for stupid questions...there is a reason that I put off all electrical until now...
A sincere thank you again Jim!
Christian

[jmod]

Hi Christian,

Ok, I could have been clearer on that one. I've mixed the toggle and mirror wiring a bit.

The Browns should be at the mirror for the heating circuit so don't worry about them. You can access the brown wire at the toggle switch. I soldered a new brown wire to the existing spade connection going to the toggle switch and attached it to the relay. You don't really need to cut the white and blue, you can just disconnect them from the toggle and put new wires in to connect to the toggle.

I placed the relay about 6 inches below the toggle and encased it in heat shrink (after it all worked).

Good practice is also to add a diode across the relay coil which I have on my relay but it didn't make it to the diagram. You can add that as a last step.