1987 Carrera AC Question...

[cattman]

Need to redo my AC system, have read many threads here, but remain confused by some of the offerings available.

All (Rennaire, Retro-Aire, and Griffiths) kits include a new evaporator, drier, and hoses.

Rennaire's basic kit uses our stock condensers.
Retro-Aire's basic kit calls for replacement of the rear condenser.
Griffiths basic kit calls for replacement of the front condoner.

So:
-Is it foolish to simply use my stock condensers?
-If I am only going to replace one, which one is better to replace, the front or the rear?
-The ProCooler replaces the receiver/ drier, correct?

Thanks!
CATTMAN

[zippy_gg]

Originally Posted by cattman

Need to redo my AC system, have read many threads here, but remain confused by some of the offerings available.

All (Rennaire, Retro-Aire, and Griffiths) kits include a new evaporator, drier, and hoses.

Rennaire's basic kit uses our stock condensers.
Retro-Aire's basic kit calls for replacement of the rear condenser.
Griffiths basic kit calls for replacement of the front condoner.

So:
-Is it foolish to simply use my stock condensers? It is one of the limitations of the system
-If I am only going to replace one, which one is better to replace, the front or the rear? Front is the most important
-The ProCooler replaces the receiver/ drier, correct? Dunno!

Thanks!
CATTMAN

Based on reading trusted sources, such as the web sites for the vendors you named, these are the conclusions I drew (Comments in blue on your post).
In a month or so I will embark on the AC reconstruction of my 86 cab. I will most likely replace both condensors with the Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Condensers from Captain Reid.

[hcoles]

this is getting like the oil threads, must be the season

My current plan after talking to Griffiths.

89 3.2
going from R12 to R134a

Parts/kit from Griffiths

- replace all hoses
- clean reuse deck lid condenser, assume not cracked or leaking
- new better front condenser for added capacity
- probably new evaporator because these have leak issues when old
- reuse compressor, if inspection comes up bad then need new of this

I don't live in a hot climate and this R134a should work better than a perfect R12 system which I think is good enough for me. If I need more I'll look at better front fan or added fan or sealing on the rear.

The thing I liked is Griffith found me a good place to go get it filled. I'll do the busy work. As I understand people have tested micro-channel condensers. It may be that they have pros and cons.

[craigyirush]

Sorry to hi-jack, but is R12 the original coolant? And is it still legally available in CA?

[cattman]

I've been going back and forth between the suppliers, and they all have different takes. All say that it's mandatory to get new hoses, receiver/ dryer, and all also agree that it would be smart to "invest" in a new compressor, because despite the fact that mine works just fine, they say that at 135k miles mine is well past its shelf life for a car in my climate.

The controversy surrounds the evaporator and condensers: keep both condensers stock, replace front, replace rear, replace both, and/ or add additional condensers in the driver's side rear wheel well. Replace the evaporator, or leave it stock.
-Griffith says go with FOUR condensers and the stock evaporator(the 2 currently in place, plus 2 new supplemental units).
-Retroair says go with TWO condensers, replacing only the rear unit, and upgrading the evaporator.

Here's the deal: I believe both will work very well. The difference is philosophical. The Retroair recommendation seems more simple, and more efficient. The Griffith recommendation is likely outstanding, perhaps more than I'd need. One may produce colder vent temps than the other, who knows. Each have proof. Whatever. The bottom line is that I don't care if I can hang meat in my car, all I want is for the cabin to be 66-68 when it's 95 outside, that's all. Regardless, it seems that simply the universally agreed upon upgrades will cost about $1,800 for the parts alone.
CATTMAN

[hcoles]

Originally Posted by cattman

I've been going back and forth between the suppliers, and they all have different takes. All say that it's mandatory to get new hoses, receiver/ dryer, and all also agree that it would be smart to "invest" in a new compressor, because despite the fact that mine works just fine, they say that at 135k miles mine is well past its shelf life for a car in my climate.

The controversy surrounds the evaporator and condensers: keep both condensers stock, replace front, replace rear, replace both, and/ or add additional condensers in the driver's side rear wheel well.
-Griffith says to go with FOUR condensers (the 2 currently in place, plus 2 new supplemental units).
-Retroair says go with TWO, replacing only the rear unit.

Here's the deal: this whole thing is like a biggest schlong contest to see who can get the coldest vent temps. I don't care if I can hang meat in my car, all I want is for the cabin to be 68-70 when it's 95 outside, that's all. I think some of the advice is overkill. Regardless, it seems that simply the universally agreed upon upgrades will cost about $1,800 for the parts alone.
CATTMAN

that's exactly what I'm coming up with - you don't need 9 condensers, just good enough to be OK or a bit warm in your worst situation and have a reliable system that can give you that when you want it, thanks for saying

[hcoles]

Originally Posted by craigyirush

Sorry to hi-jack, but is R12 the original coolant? And is it still legally available in CA?

yes (up to year 1990?) then new cars used R134a, yes

[craigyirush]

Thanks for the clarification re R12 and R 134.

I have had mine recharged twice with R134. Otherwise my system is stock (with one or two new hoses). Both times it blew cold enough for me to be stuck in LA traffic in the summer and still be cool (and the air felt quite cold at the vents).

But (probably b/c the rest of my hoses are old) the recharge only lasted for a three or four months both times. Then again it only cost me a couple of hundred bucks not thouands!

[drodg]

I bought a Griffith's conversion kit for my 911sc it has 47000 miles on it. I didn't replace the condenser or the compressor. It was 79.00 plus the labor I paid a mechanic. So far it is blowing as cold as any new car I have been driving. We have been experiencing some hot days here in Indiana. I have only had it done a few weeks ago but couldn't be happier.

[mlfox]

Originally Posted by drodg

I bought a Griffith's conversion kit for my 911sc it has 47000 miles on it. I didn't replace the condenser or the compressor. It was 79.00 plus the labor I paid a mechanic. So far it is blowing as cold as any new car I have been driving. We have been experiencing some hot days here in Indiana. I have only had it done a few weeks ago but couldn't be happier.

I purchased Griffith's 911 Kuehl 507 Compressor kit #1 three years ago. I, too, couldn't be happier with the end results, even here in the Southern Indiana heat.

Regards,
mlfox

[hcoles]

Originally Posted by craigyirush

Thanks for the clarification re R12 and R 134.

I have had mine recharged twice with R134. Otherwise my system is stock (with one or two new hoses). Both times it blew cold enough for me to be stuck in LA traffic in the summer and still be cool (and the air felt quite cold at the vents).

But (probably b/c the rest of my hoses are old) the recharge only lasted for a three or four months both times. Then again it only cost me a couple of hundred bucks not thouands!

excellent info. thanks.
I think this confirms that good enough AC, in some locations, can be had without more than two condensers, sure if you want 32F vent bragging rights then knock yourself out, I like hearing about it we all learn. I'm lucky to not live in a hot area.

[cattman]

The kit Griffith is recommending to me is $1,900 with a new compressor, hoses, drier, supplemental condenser, and misc switches & hardware.
The kit Retroair is recommending is about the same, comes with a new compressor, hoses, drier, evaporator, and misc switched & hardware.

So the choice basically comes down to: extra condenser or an upgraded evaporator?

[KOH]

If you have to choose, I think you go with a new evaporator. If your compressor is good, use that money towards a new evaporator. The first time I tried to address my AC the original evaporator was riddled with holes. I ordered a Griffiths and it was much larger than the original. That with a charge was realtively comfortable until outside temps got into the mid 80s.

I overhauled my AC last year with Griffiths' equipment - hoses, new front condensor, one rear fender condensor, receiver/dryer, plus a new compressor from Pelican (I kept the decklid condensor). Now I can hang meat as you say, or blow ice cubes as Charlie says.

[hcoles]

yes, that is what Griffiths said, the evaporator is likely holy/shot - you are probably right the original condenser set might work fine with all other things proper with R134a

[cattman]

I know Griffith's is well-known, and respected, and Charlie has been helpful to me. However, I think that the plan laid out by Retroair (Rock) makes more sense.

Kit would be about $1,700:
-new serpentine evaporator
-new rear condenser
-new compressor
-new hoses
-new drier
-misc fitment parts

I already have the Retroair upgraded blower motor assembly, so it should all work to perfection and give me what I want.
CATTMAN

[hcoles]

Originally Posted by cattman

I know Griffith's is well-known, and respected, and Charlie has been helpful to me. However, I think that the plan laid out by Retroair (Rock) makes more sense.

Kit would be about $1,700:
-new serpentine evaporator
-new rear condenser
-new compressor
-new hoses
-new drier
-misc fitment parts

I already have the Retroair upgraded blower motor assembly, so it should all work to perfection and give me what I want.
CATTMAN

It might depend on the rear condenser you have, I have the latest 3.2L car version so I think it should be good to go if not leaking. I'm thinking the improved front Griffith condenser adds a bit of capability. The kit you list above looks good to me, basically all new parts and running R134. I bet it works great.

[Barrpete]

I think any of the kits will give you pretty good performance with 134a. They all take a slightly difference approach but also a lot of similarity too.

All three provide improvements on the OE condensors which is the biggest weakness of the system. Rennaire adds the procooler which functions much as an additional condensor (and yes it replaces the reciever/dryer), Griffiths adds condensors in the wheel well and Retroaire replaces the decklid with a more efficient condensor.

I think for sure you want to replace the evaporator since you're changing to 134a - it should come with a 134a expansion valve. Besides the fact that newer serpentine design is more efficient.

When I redid my system, I wasn't aware of Retroaire and I went with Rennaire because it seemed more of a drop-in than Griffiths which requires installing the condensors in the wheel well. At the time I also looked for an upgraded decklid condensor but couldn't find one, so I used the original one.

Bottom line, there's more than one way to skin the AC cat!

[hcoles]

Barrpete, Agreed.
I couldn't pull up much on Retroaire that is Porsche related. I must not be hitting the right webiste. I seem some links mentioning a Retroaire fan. If it turns out that my deck lid condenser needs replacing, I want to know what my options are.
A strong theme on these AC threads is renewing old and degraded components replaced and all properly working gets you a system able to cool enough for most places.

[GH85Carrera]

I did the dual kuhel upgrade. I added the two condensers in the rear fender, replaced the evaporator & of course the receiver and all rubber hoses. I am on vacation in Savannah Ga in August. It was in the low 90s with HIGH humidity on a trip this morning. My wife actually asked me to turn the temperature UP because she was cold. The ultimate compliment to my 911s AC.

On the trip back to the hotel it was 100 degrees and the AC was at max and we were very comfortable.

All of this was in a 1985 Carrera.

Griffiths stuff is not cheap, but it works. Good Porsches are not cheap but they are the great.