Porsche Prophesy?

[Jim T]

"Porsche is certainly the smallest German car manufacturing company and one of the smallest in the world in terms of production or turnover. If we begin by considering the popularity of a make of car rather than economic greatness, to be classed amont the 'great' names is certainly a compliment to the sports car, since from the outset only sports cars have been manufactured under the name Porsche and this will always be the case.

Since the beginning of car manufacture, people have wanted to own and drive sports and racing cars above all. Car enthusiasts delight in the sporting successes of 'their' make of car than in the numbers sold. Porsche will never become a mass producer and will always preserve the exclusivity of the sports car from Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen.

I am optimistic, too, about the future of the sports car -- although people who envy our position think that such a 'luxury' is out of place in these times of restricted energy. As a matter of fact, thanks to its better aerodynamics and lighter weight, a sports car uses less fuel at any speed than a comparable sedan: It is 15% to 20% more economical to drive a sports car.

My optimism is not, however, based solely on such economic calculations. Even in the unlikely event of the car disappearing one day from the road, we will still have the sports car. If we take the horse as an example: as a working animal it is practically non-existent, but in the field of leisure and sport there are many more horses today than ever before."

Dr.-Ing.h.c. Ferdinand Porsche

(Pretty well said, don't you think??)

[Jack Olsen]

It's a different company with an entirely different mission statement, now.

Enthusiasts like us, at least, can keep those original ideals moving forward.

I agree.

[dtw]

[devilsadvocate]

What would the anti-Cayenne camp's opinion be, if Porsche moved forward and produced the Cayenne, but branded it under a different name?

[/devilsadvocate]

-Dave (#1 on the Cayenne TurboDiesel waiting list)

That would be fine with me. Since it's partly a VW they might as well just call it that. I don't mind. That way they would still make money but without risking/compromising the Porsche name/image.

After all they run the socalled "Porsche Konstruktionsbüro" beside being a manufacturer. They've build stuff for Volvo, Seat, Mercedes and Audi for example.

[Randy W]

Thanks for the refresher, Jim, and your reply, Jack. Yes, this mission statement by Dr. Porsche is history now, and the claim by the old man that "Porsche is the only independent sports car manufacturer in the world" is history too. Porsche changed when Ferry died. The reason that groups of enthusiasts banded together shortly thereafter (R Gruppe, etc.), is that Porsche does not hold to this ideal any longer. It's up to us to be the "keepers of the flame".

I may not believe in Porsche as a company in the same way any longer, but that hasn't changed my belief in these earlier cars, and the ideals of the men like Ferry, Butzi and Piech that created them. For me, there are some values worth preserving (and defending). Going in the opposite direction of the mainstream, started as a hobby for me and has since become a way of life I pursue with a bemused detachment - for me, life just makes a little more sense now.

[9eleven]

What's amazing is that Porsche has now become "Bizarro Porsche"

Everything is the exact opposite!

"Popularity of the make of car v. Economic Greatness"

"Only sports cars have been made under the Porsche name and that will always be the case"

"Car enthusiasts delight in the sporting successes of 'their' make of car than in the numbers sold." (I love that one, now that Porsche has no racing so they can focus on numbers sold).

etc.

[Clark Griswald]

Although I'm not old enough to remember, I imagine that there was a merry band of loyal 356 owners back in '64 / '65.

When Porsche announced a 6 cylinder car and named it 911 the merry 356 band threw their arms up in disgust. It wasn't a Porsche. Porsche's have 4 cylinders.

But it simply wasn't so. Porsche the company evolved beyond what the 356 gang knew and was going in a different direction.

Porsches now had 6 cylis, air conditioning, and lot's more power (power as in windows, locks, defrosters, brakes, steering, motorized tails, sunroofs, alarms, cruise control, mirrors, headlight washers...... jeeze the list is long when your write it out).

The merry 356 band rejected the "new" porsche and carried on playing with their cars secure in the knowledge they were the true Porsche owners. 35 years later some of them are still hanging in, keeping the flame alive.

And a brand new group of guys with different needs and desires bought the 911s. And they liked them. And in time they came to believe they were the true Porsche owners.

Now its 2002 and I feel a lot like the those 356 owners.

But Porsche the company will continue to evolve. That's reality. And it will likely begin to attract a new and different kind of buyer, just as the 911 did. Clearly the Cayenne ( or even the $200k GT) is a more radical change than the 911/356 comparison. But some new group of buyers will covet these things and may someday consider themselves to be the true Porsche owners.

Fortunately there are plenty of 911s out there to play with and keep the faithfull satisfied. Truth is I don't feel much affinity for the new water pumper 911s today. The company has already moved on.

[Superman]

I'm not sure how much the 356 crowd hated the 911. The 911 started as a race car, from day one. They would surely have noticed that it was a closed-track butt-kicker. How much could they have hated that?

[turbo dave]

I've also read about the 356 crowd not at all liking the 911 when it first came out. It's funny, Porsche has consistantly had trouble listening to their customers. How about this for their first efforts on the 911:


Supposedly, Dr. Ferry had to get his brother to work on the car independantly, because the head of design (Komenda) wanted to make it too big. Also, have you heard about the rationale behind the front torsion bars? It was to make room for a set of golf clubs in the front!!

How about the 928 being designed to replace the 911? Or, has anyone here seen the 928 four-door concept? How about the difference betweem the Boxter concept & the Boxster?



Porsche is a company of great design moments, not continuing design excellence.

[turbo dave]

Just had to post another of Grant Larson's concept, to depress myself further. I saw his stuff when he was still in school, he was an amazing designer. I hope to hell he's gone, and isn't in any way responsible for this Cayenne mess.

Time to fire Harm Lagaay, he just isn't very good. Put Grant Larson or Freeman Thomas in charge of design over there, get some character and beauty back into their cars. (They still make cars, right?)

[turbo dave]

One more, just to drive home the pain: here's a few years ago (done by my man Larson):



Here's today:

[N11Porsche]

Just because Porsche has decided to produce an SUV, doesn't mean the company is going down the tubes! Porsche heritage is racing, I am all for the Cayenne, maybe the increased profits from the SUV will allow Porsche to get back into racing.

B.M.W. & Mercedes produce SUV's and that fact, hasn't lessened or had a negative impact on their reputations. When you see a B.M.W. driving down the street, do you think to yourselve's, "that's not the same B.M.W. as before" just because they now produce an SUV? I don't, in fact I don't even think about it. B.M.W. has alway produced great cars and always will, even though they now make an SUV.

Porsche is going to produce the fastest and best handling SUV on the planet!! That's pretty awesome!! When the Cayenne hits the market, it is not going to chance people's perception of the marquee. My 911 will be just as fast and handle just as well and look just a good as it did, before Porsche started producing the Cayenne. (and so will your's). People complained about the Boxster on this board, when they came out. The Boxster is an great sports car! It's just not a 911 or a 944 or whatever.

I am not an SUV person (I personally think they should be outlawed - they guzzle too much gas and polute more than most other vehicles) so I am not jumping on the SUV bandwagon. I just think too many p-car owners are getting their feathers ruffled over a non-issue. but than this is just my .02 cents worth............................................. .................

[widebody911]

Ah! But you missed a fundamental point: BMW and Mercedes have always made 'commuter' cars *first*, and sports cars *second*. Hewlett Packard makes printers and unix servers. It wasn't a great leap for them to make PC's. If they discontinued laser printers, and started making washing machines, *that* would be more analogous to Porsche abandoning racing and making oversized station wagons.

Originally posted by N11Porsche
B.M.W. & Mercedes produce SUV's and that fact, hasn't lessened or had a negative impact on their reputations. When you see a B.M.W. driving down the street, do you think to yourselve's, "that's not the same B.M.W. as before" just because they now produce an SUV? I don't, in fact I don't even think about it. B.M.W. has alway produced great cars and always will, even though they now make an SUV.

[pbs911]

Anyone know if J. Seinfield has taken delivery, or will take delivery of the Porsche "Pepper" SUV. Is he building room in that 14 mil garage for the SUV?

I would love to hear the thoughts of one of Porsche's largest collectors.

[turbo dave]

That's just it- there are a lot of BMW fans, but as a percentage of the BMW population? Nothing like Porsche. Mercedes clubs? Yeah, right. By becoming a truck company, Porsche risks exposing all its inherent weaknesses: they are small, have very little engineering resources compared to someone like M-B, very high manufacturing costs. Passion for their cars & history is the only thing keeping them from being in as much trouble as so many other car companies, and nobody has massive, lifelong passion for SUV's.

[930fan]

I think I will split what I think of the Cayenne concept and the Cayenne product. I am dissappointed with the styling of the car. I think it is a missed opportunity for Porsche to produce a truly stylish car and instead it looks bland from the photos.

As for the concept, they think it is crucial that they have a third volume model (the Carrera GT is not a volume model) to ensure that they remain an independent company and not become just another badge in the arsenal of a big car company (see the Ford-ification of the new Jaguars (x type/ s type) as an example of what I mean).

Sure they are making record profits now and have been for a few years but the company is looking ahead and all the trends in the auto industry are that volumes have to be large to support much shorter model cycles that exist now. There is no way that the 996 and Boxster can continue unchanged for 30+ years like the aircooled 911s in todays world. Not when 3series BMWs are making 340hp, Audi estates are making 450hp and future Mercs (the SLR) 550hp. The competition is much hotter now and Porsche has to compete with very strong products from manufacturers that produce millions of cars a year that have huge resources behind them.

What 3rd model to produce? A sub Boxster to compete with the Toyota MR2 and the Mazda MX5 is out of the question. No way Porsche can compete with these guys on price and exclusivity of the badge goes out the window with a 4cyl Porsche compromising their profitable 986 and 996 models so basically the sports car option is gone.

A new 928 would be pointless too. not when a 996 is refined enough to play the GT role in standard form and is a hard core sports car with the sport package. A luxury/sports sedan would be crazy too as they have to compete with Benz/BMW/Audi and they have been doing this for decades. The market is small too as just look at the tiny numbers E55s, M5s and S6s sell in. Having said that, I would not be suprised if they do build a front engined GT priced above a 996 turbo since the Cayenne powertrain is ideal for that.

That leaves the SUV. A super sport SUV for the existing 996 owner. Exclusive so the image is protected and very profitable. It also gets a whole new clientele in the show room who will buy more 986s and 996s. Not a perfect outcome to see the company ideals compromised but really it was forced upon them by the economic realities of the 21st century.

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Supposedly, Dr. Ferry had to get his brother

8)

Well Dr Porsche only had a Sister and she wasn´t talentent on mechanics or art. She only knew how to handle money, big money.

Actually it was Ferry´s first son Ferdinand ( Butzi ).

to work on the car independantly, because the head of design (Komenda) wanted to make it too big.

OK the facts are that Kommeda, Butzi and Graf Goertz made different designs. After some dicussions Butzis raws seemed the best between the very conservative Kommeda and the very "stylistic" ( remember Goertz learned under R. Lowey ) design. Now after the dices where thrown Goertz moved on for the next job but Kommeda was stiill around and tried to make Butzis design more conservative and as Kommeda wasn´t a designer like nowerdays ( he was a engeneer who shaped the form after the functions and one function was easy to produce and easy to repair, remeber Bauhaus ? ) so he alwas tried to make sugestions or changed design elemnts behind the curtain.
One reason was that Kommeda didn´t liked Butzi who wasn´t a rational technicain ( more a artist ).

Now Dr Porsche had to make a statement witch leads to put Butzi in charge and speak some tough words to his fathers old friend who was more like a good friend to him too.

Finally Dr. Porsche trustet the future from his company into the hands from his son who even hadn´t a highshool masterdgre and spend one year learning design in Ulm ( after his idol R. Lowey didn´t answered his letters ). In the same time his nephew Ferdinand Piech also became a strategic point and became responsible for major parts from the new Porsche.

Both had bee known as "Dreamers" and young fruits ( Greenhorns ).


Also, have you heard about the rationale behind the front torsion bars? It was to make room for a set of golf clubs in the front!!

Every marked had other things in the trunks. Germans liked to transport beer cases.
The goal from the new frontaxles where:

More safety
Better handling
lower center of gravity
lighter
easier to tune & maintain
Competive handling
Enough reserves for coming tire generations
space for a larger fuel cell
more trunkspace
usabler trunkspace
Enough space to store gas heater, ventsystem and battery without costing to much volume

The frontaxle was a masterpiece from Mr. Bott.

BTW the first prototypes still had a modified 356 frontaxle.

How about the 928 being designed to replace the 911? Or, has anyone here seen the 928 four-door concept? How about the difference betweem the Boxter concept & the Boxster

Now the 928 startet very unlucky. The original concept based on the VW EA266 wich was a midengine car in Sub Rabbit size.

Now on the divorce with VW those cars got rolled over ( really with a Porsche construction, the Leopard I ) and Porsche then made a 180° turn to show it to all of them. The 928 should become the absolute milestone in every aspect and born before the oilcrisis Porsche was thinking big and knew what most markeds where asking for utmost: V8 and far Cubic Inches.

The 928 was mabe the last car ever startet from a blank sheet.
It wasn´t designed as a 911 follow up but when the 924 ( EA 425 ) came into the house the 911 was Sandwiched and looked very old/dated. So Fuhrmann who pushed the 911 Turbo to life and now CEO had to make desicions short after the oilcrisis when money was short and the future very dark.

The 911 seemed to old and to "raw" to be still saleing to a normal costumer. The production was to backdatet and therefore unrational ( expensive ). The aircooling system needed major reworking for the new emmision laws in the US, Japan and Switzerland. Finally those modifications costet power and the 911 would have fallen back further. The 935 was Moby Dicked and the raceclass burned up. ( noone wntet to play with Porsche anymore ). So it was forseeable that the 911 would vanish from the rce tracks and from puplicity. New race cars where based on the 924 and Porsche jumped into the 956 using the moby Dick engine.

Now afik there was never a 928 four door concept.

There was a 928 follow up using a engíne based on the TAG V6/IndyV8. This car would have starte as a sedan and later a Coupe/Convertible would have replaced the 928.

The cars would have a V8 ( 4L 360 HP ?) or a twin(?) blown V8 ( 500 HP ? ). A V6 ( 240 HP also aviable as blown version ) was planed to be fitet into the 968.

The new engine generations would have droped the engine wights by some 20% while the power output was about the same level higher.

Now that would have brought the then new 964 into trouble again.

However Porsche realized that the new engines would had been to expensive and the new cars also would have been to expensive to sale in the needed amount ( Dollar broke in, Luxory marked got under pressure from japanese made perfections plus Mercedes & BMW would have sharpened there claws and used backgroundpolitics ).

This was when a filparound startet and Porsche tried to return into the old niche. The boxster was just a modern 550 rebirth but Porsche couldn´t manage to make the package for a competive price. So the car got heavier, larger and less inspiring details moved the character to a more modest level ( 993 was still a bit raw for people who liked it ).
Also to save costs it was decided to use the frontendstructure and the body up to the B-Pillar on the new 996 too so some freed money from the 996 went into the boxster.

Now just wantet to reflash the history to understand the future.

Porsche needed a secound marked complete different from the sportscar niche.

The new Shayene will find buyers. The quest is how many and will they stick to the Porsche brand or just hop from marque to marque. The Cay.. isn´t to unique in the marked. Maybe with a rear engine flat 6 .....

I soon will see the new cars unmasked and then I think about it again. I had seen and heard the cars several times in there raw hides ( underwear ) and those things move and sound nice.

And the X5 is so Butuggly that Porsche has to work hard to top that off.

BTW Roland Kunz allready ordered one. He is a well known countertenor in germany and needs something with capacity for four and lugage but never had the guts to buy a Porsche ( only dreamned about it ). He just heared the prototypes and loved the sounds.... Well a bit maserati is in it a bit 928, hard to explain just good tunes ( musique ).

Grüsse

[turbo dave]

Thanks for the reply, Roland; as usual, you know more about the topic than I and another dozen Pelicanheads put together. I always watch out for your posts, you always seem to have the clear answer on Porsche.

A couple of points, though. First, a hearty "doh!" from me on the Butzi/brother thing. I should have known better, that was a loser screwup, especially for an industrial designer that used to work in Austria!

Second, I think it was Paul Frere's book that stated Porsche went away from using coil springs in front, because it prevented golf clubs from fitting in the trunk. Probably a good call, but obviously not a decision made with 356 purists in mind.

Second, I know I've seen pictures of a four-door 928. A quick search on google didn't uncover anything, but I'll keep looking, and post when I find it. It is a god-awful creation, makes the pfefferwagen look like an artistic triumph.

Third, even though I've always been a big 928 admirer, you've gotta admit that if Porsche really replaced the 911 with it, the company would truly be a different animal today. They would have become a company of mainstream sports coupes & GT cars, no longer very unique.

So, even if this is the right business/financial decision, they are again pushing the company away from the hardcore supporters, toward something more in the vein of a BMW than Ferrari. Of course, Ferrari wasn't able to stay independant either, but maybe that's been a good thing for them? This entire thing is going to be interesting to watch...

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

The 4 door Porsche was the 989. Remainings from the projekt went into the 993 and maybe will apier in the SUVer.

Now i think there was one 928 limousine made by Schultz ( Styling Garage ) or Buchmann ( BB ) for a far eastern costumer.

You know those guys who need gullwing Mercedes SEC or Ferrari 456 Estates just to be different.

Grüsse