Do I need maintenance records?

[dcottam]

Am I crazy? I am on the verge of buying a car that has no maintenance records (owner and his private mechanic have done all the work for the past 24 years). Car is relatively low mileage '84. Carfax and Autocheck come back clean. Owner is fine with me having a PPI done.

What is the value of maintenance records? Should I care?

[efhughes3]

I do all my own work, but I save every parts receipt. They have nothing?

Records do not ensure a good car, but they help paint a picture of its history. Good records could add value to a nice car.

[plumb4u2]

i purchased a 88k mile 84 with no records of any kind also no ppi

I have been fortunate to have found a good car with no issues other then normal maintenance that i have been performing on my own
i dont believe having records will make car more valuable but will probably make it easier to sell

many here will demand you get a ppi and i would recommend it also, however most people that tell you to get one did not have one done themselves

if the owner and his mechanic did all work for 24 yrs i would think they could give you an idea of what work was performed

dont forget this is a 27 yr old car so you need to plan for more problems to come along

[Drisump]

If it is established that he did have the car for that long, it sounds like he is a great source to buy a car from. A quality PPI would go a long way in assurance that it's not being sold for expensive reasons. You may also contact the mechanic directly to get a feel of his approach to 911's. In terms of resale, yes, if a year from now, if you decided to sell it, the car becomes just another 911 with a non-existent history, so records are important in that case. I bought my car with no records but two Porsche maintenance record books in the glove box. I called up the places and they promptly sent me piles of records for the car...great service. Cheers and good luck

[vracer]

The car will take a financial hit when you sell. Up to you if you take one when you buy.

[naples911]

Only if the work that the seller is claiming was done changes the value of the car - imho. There, I have ruled...

[dienstuhr]

I had a comprehensive PPI done when I bought my car. There was very little in the way of records.

I continue to advocate buyers obtain a thorough PPI before purchase. I don't put a great deal of value on the huge stack of receipts. Anything can go wrong, or even be wrong, with a car, regardless of whether there is a receipt showing some work was done. Besides, I think we all agree that there are some shops that we wouldn't want touching our cars with 10-foot poles... for example, how much value would you attribute to a receipt for a rebuilt engine from Motormeister?

Cheers

d.

[Josh D]

I personally would put a stack of receipts before a PPI.

A stack of receipts shows that the PO took care of the car, whether at a mechanics shop, or as a DIY'er. It also demonstrates exactly whats been replaced on the car in terms of maintenance, modifications and what has failed over the years. My car had receipts from PO of 1st & 2nd gear syncros and sliders replaced. A PPI wouldn't have found that and it's nice to know.

Without records and receipts, a PPI is probably a good idea.

[RWebb]

you want both

a PPI tells you the current condition of the car, to the extent that one can ascertain that via the diagnostic procedures able to be used

the value of the receipts is that tells you what items that usually need to be maintained or replaced at certain mileages have been - you can then calculate how many miles or years are likely to pass before X is needed

- it can also tell you if a quality shop or a cheapo place did the work, and if the PO was careful overall; if the car was raced, etc.

it's a lot like a medical and health history vs. a checkup -- you want both

[McLovin]

Records are nice to have, but not a deal killer to me.

And if you keep the car for a few years, you'll start up a new record base that a future potential owner can use. If you own the car for 5 years, and keep your records, most 911 buyers are going to be OK with that, and not worry too much about what maintenance was done in 1995.

Ultimately, all that matters is the condition of the car, as it sits today. Records are just useful as one piece of evidence that can be used to help determine that condition. But they are just one piece, and are not determinative.

I've owned a lot of 911s over the past 25 years. Some have had every scrap of paper since new, some have had almost none (although none have had absolutely no records). I've never been stuck with a "lemon" or been disappointed in any 911 I've bought, and 90% of the time I buy with no PPI (other than my own inspection).

But, I only buy from private sellers, and almost always from people that have owned the car for some period of time. One of the most impt pieces of information I use in analyzing the car isn't even the car itself - it's the owner. I can tell a lot about the car from talking in person with the owner for 1/2 hour, seeing the inside of his house, his garage, his other cars, etc.

[fiminod]

Hold on there Hoss...One owner for 24 years with same mechanic. Will let you have independant PPI...how many miles? Bought two 911's...1978 with 164k...no records...drove until totalled at 268k. Had 2, yes 2, PPi's done, all checked out. It was nice to see the dates and viscosity on the oil filter, date on air filter and fuel filter. Recently purchased '84 in May with 115k, minimal records 2 owners. PPI checked out, now has 122k no issues...a bit of seafoam, new filters, oil and valve adjust. Reputable Porsche mechanics will know by the "little things' that usually only they notice. Like those dates... so, records are nice but not absolutley necessary imo.

[robdiver]

I purchased my 89 120,000mile, one owner car with no PPI and no maintenance records. The previous owner was some one who I knew. Unfortunately, he passed away before I bought the car, so we never discussed maintenance. The car is solid and reliable, a good buy. Funny thing is I found the shop that did all the work on this car, and picked up all the service records today. I have this car for almost a year. I am floored at how much the PO spent on repairs. In any event are you buying the car to enjoy it( my reason) or as an investment? Go for it.

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by McLovin

Records are nice to have, but not a deal killer to me.

And if you keep the car for a few years, you'll start up a new record base that a future potential owner can use. If you own the car for 5 years, and keep your records, most 911 buyers are going to be OK with that, and not worry too much about what maintenance was done in 1995.

Ultimately, all that matters is the condition of the car, as it sits today. Records are just useful as one piece of evidence that can be used to help determine that condition. But they are just one piece, and are not determinative.

I've owned a lot of 911s over the past 25 years. Some have had every scrap of paper since new, some have had almost none (although none have had absolutely no records). I've never been stuck with a "lemon" or been disappointed in any 911 I've bought, and 90% of the time I buy with no PPI (other than my own inspection).

But, I only buy from private sellers, and almost always from people that have owned the car for some period of time. One of the most impt pieces of information I use in analyzing the car isn't even the car itself - it's the owner. I can tell a lot about the car from talking in person with the owner for 1/2 hour, seeing the inside of his house, his garage, his other cars, etc.

Lucky for you and I thought this wisdom would do the same for me. Wrong. In brief, years ago I purchased at that time a late model Audi from a 'so called' reputable independent garage 'specializing' in Audi, MB, BMW, Porsche, VW. The owner of the shop was also the owner of the car and claimed it was his wifes driver.

To speed things up here, I purchased the car, drove it a month, trans. puked. I complained, rebuilt trans goes in at my expense. Trans. pukes a second time, not happy, I go to the local dealer, search for records - VIN and discover the scumbag seller took 75,000 miles OFF the odometer while in his ownership. Further detective work finds this guy never installed a rebuilt trans. Lawsuit time. Scumbag denies and court delays using wife has cancer excuse, etc.. 11th hour to judgement day, we settle out of court. I should have really pushed to have him locked up.

Good luck - Scott

Oh, and one more thing - VERY IMPORTANT - I have discovered thru the years, some Porsche service log books dealer stamped WITHOUT sevices ever done. Won't name them here but just a warning to do your homework.

[dcottam]

Thanks to all who replied. There are no records, so it came down to if I wanted the car badly enough - which I did (its a slightly unusual, all original car with 45k miles). My choice for the PPI is highly rated here and in other forums - and when I mentioned the sellers name was told unprompted "Oh I know him - he is fastidious". Is there anything you want to hear more when buying a car?

Thanks again.

[Grady Clay]

Dave,
Congratulations.
Welcome to the Forum
You will find a lot of help here.

Do I need maintenance records?

Yes, if possible.

Maintenance records are just like everything else that determines provenance.
More and greater detail is better.

The time is here where Porsches that can be documented from Porsche’s build and MSO to your ownership can double the value of the car.
It can also prevent the severe problem of buying a 911 with a ‘checkered’ past – severe crash, salvage title, theft recovery or worst: a stolen car with invalid title and owned by an insurance company.

There is a theory that people selling cars come in two ‘flavors’: those who are perfectly honest and tell you every detail and those with the BIG LIE (as the odometer scam above).
In practice, I suspect there is a wide gradation with some normally honest person ‘neglecting’ to mention there was an ‘almost-total’ crash when new (but it was repaired).
Regardless, I think Buyer Beware applies always.


I think every little detail counts.
This can include registration receipts, insurance cards, trip logs, fuel & oil consumption logs, photo documentation and maintenance records (particularly DIY).
Of course title chain-of-ownership is THE critical information.

As our cars get to normally having 300k+ miles, what has happened over that time is important.
Equally important are the details of a very-low-mileage 911, particularly if it commands a premium price.
Low mileage is a definite advantage if there was regular driving and maintenance based on time (not miles).
A 911 that sat for a decade+ has another set of (possibly severe) issues and some require complete rebuilding.


It sounds like you have a ‘find’ and can look forward to many decades of enjoyment.
Again, WELCOME

Best,
Grady

[NewfieMZ3]

Originally Posted by dienstuhr

I had a comprehensive PPI done when I bought my car. There was very little in the way of records.

I continue to advocate buyers obtain a thorough PPI before purchase. I don't put a great deal of value on the huge stack of receipts. Anything can go wrong, or even be wrong, with a car, regardless of whether there is a receipt showing some work was done. Besides, I think we all agree that there are some shops that we wouldn't want touching our cars with 10-foot poles... for example, how much value would you attribute to a receipt for a rebuilt engine from Motormeister?

Cheers

d.

I think seeing a receipt from Motormeister would be invaluable!!!!!!! Decision made to walk away.

[RWebb]

Dave - congrats

Now start a history on the car - ask the mechanics/shops who serviced it; ask the owner for any receipts & start your own maint. log - I use an Excel spreadsheet with various worksheets for the log and for required maint. times & mileages.

A "good" PO will want to pass the car and all its records, stories etc. on as a unit to someone who will take care of it (somewhat like marrying off a daughter).

Long term & Commonly Neglected Maintenance

[mondogarage]

Originally Posted by dienstuhr

I had a comprehensive PPI done when I bought my car. There was very little in the way of records.

I continue to advocate buyers obtain a thorough PPI before purchase. I don't put a great deal of value on the huge stack of receipts. Anything can go wrong, or even be wrong, with a car, regardless of whether there is a receipt showing some work was done.

Cheers

d.

Echo this completely.

When I got serious about getting a 911 this year, I ended up getting PPIs on multiple vehicles. The first was one where the seller showed me a ton of receipts for work he allegedly had done. Well, the PPI (from a well regarded Porsche mechanic in town) told a very different story, either that the work was done very shoddily, or not at all, and that the $21.5k car I was looking at would need an easy $6-7k of work to actually make it a $21.5k car.

Got another PPI on the car I eventually bought, and it came with almost no historical records (unfortunately). But this car came from a Porsche service facility where the owners claimed a recent top end and other work, and all of that was substantiated by the PPI. And I'm happy to call the car mine now. That said, according to Carfax, I'm the 5th or 6th owner, and I guess that means I'm stuck with taking a resale value hit when the time comes to move up to more 911, since the only maintenance records I'll have going forwards are the ones I have from the PPI forward....but on the other hand, maintenance records from, say, 1995 would be meaningless in 2011 on my 1998 Carrera, wouldn't they? Because even the 16 years from then is a ton, and service done in 1995 isn't really relevant at this point.

A fresh and in depth PPI now carries a heckuva lot more weight, imo, especially if you're talking about a car that's got upwards of 80-100k miles.

[steely]

My PO only had the car for about 2 or 3 years and gave me his records.
There were no other records - so I tried to build a history based on title transfers captured by Carfax, and I lucked out because the first owner's manual was with the car and it showed early maintenance. I don't think it's a showstopper, especially if the same owner had it all those years, but it does sound a little unusual.

[autobonrun]

Originally Posted by dcottam

There are no records, so it came down to if I wanted the car badly enough - which I did ...
Thanks again.

You hit the nail on the head and answered your own question. If someone wants a car bad enough, they will buy it regardless. A PPI will tell you a few of the things wrong with a car, but it won't tell you when a part was replaced or with what. I have computerized maintenance records on my 79SC that goes back nearly 28 years. I can tell you what was replaced, with what manufacturer, who did it, how much it cost and the mileage at the time.

The reason maintenance records are important is not to tell you that problems exist with the car. It will help you plan for when they might be forthcoming. I see from my records I changed my clutch over 110k miles and about 20 years ago. This says I may be coming up on the time for a new one. A PPI won't give this information. I can tell you when rubber suspension parts were replaced and with what. I can tell you what size sway bar was put in the car. A PPI won't provide this information. The maintenance records on my 993 show what gear ratios were put in the car when the tranny was rebuilt. Without them you don't know what you're getting; it's a crap shoot and you just know that the car runs ok today.

Personally, I would not buy a car without maintenance records. Maybe that's just me.