1973.5T converted to Weber carbs -> turn back to CIS?

[kp.sfo]

Folks,

I am in the market for an original 1973.5T Targa and have found a nice, solid one.

I am struggling with the fact that the PO has converted the car to Weber carbs, though - I was really looking for an original, unaltered car.

What is the collective genius' take on
- how far this conversion makes it a non-original car, affecting resale value in the long run?
- what it takes to turn it back to CIS? How much effort is that?

I appreciate your comments - the more, the merrier!!

[JohnJL]

Il trade you a complete cis system for your webers.

[kp.sfo]

Originally Posted by JohnJL

Il trade you a complete cis system for your webers.

John, nice try
I do understand that the value of a set of Webes might be higher than that of a CIS system, but I was wondering how much effort it is to switch back to CIS.

[E Sully]

Have you verified the engine serial number and transmission to the chassis?
Besides the webers were there any other engine modifications? Does it have the stock cam, pistons, distributor?

[jac1976]

I am no genius by any stretch of the imagination, but there are plenty here to assist. I do, however, own a 73.5 T Targa. The car is notable in that this was the introduction of the CIS and, as such, it has some parts unique to this particular year (read: difficult, if not impossible to find). Nevertheless, CIS components from later years as well as later gas tanks can be modified to work the with the 73.5. Obviously going this route technically would not return the car "original, unaltered," but seldom are cars this vintage wholly original. Although not original to the car, the Weber carbs I would consider a period modification and because they are desirable to many, I don't think would be detrimental to resale value. Some might consider it added value. If you like the car, it's solid, and checks out through a PPI I'd recommend going for it.

[kp.sfo]

Originally Posted by E Sully

Have you verified the engine serial number and transmission to the chassis?
Besides the webers were there any other engine modifications? Does it have the stock cam, pistons, distributor?

Seller claims that the car is numbers matching (engine + transmission). Haven't verified it in person yet, as I've been struggling with the Weber coversion.

Besides the Weber carbs, the engine has been modified to 2.7l with European pistons/cylinders and E cams.

[mikeferg75]

Having owned three 73.5 CIS cars I can attest to the tricky nature of part hunting to keep them going...

You really need to find out how much has been changed before you go down that road, even the gas tank is unique and difficult and to source. Without knowing what exactly has been changed for the carb conversion it's hard to say if it's worth it to change it back...

If the motor was opened up and the cams were changed to something more weber friendly, I'd say leave it as is.

Ferg

Opps you beat my to my post. If it's now a 2.7 with E cams, leave it alone.

[jac1976]

Uh, well with the revelation of that information, with respect to originality and alterations the fuel delivery should be of little to no concern.

[jac1976]

I second Ferg

[kp.sfo]

Originally Posted by mikeferg75

If it's now a 2.7 with E cams, leave it alone.

...just to clarify: "leave it alone" as in "don't think about turning it back to cis" or as in "don't bother buying because this car is no longer original"

[mikeferg75]

Meaning the $ involved to turn it back is greater than the value added by turning it back. Unless we are talking about a full resto show car.

[kp.sfo]

Originally Posted by mikeferg75

Meaning the $ involved to turn it back is greater than the value added by turning it back. Unless we are talking about a full resto show car.

Thanks for clarification. And no, this is not a concourse show car. More like a decent, solid weekend driver.
Now back to work...

[jac1976]

Not to speak for Ferg, but I agreed assuming his statement meant "don't think about turning it back to cis."

The engine has already been bored out from its original 2.4l, has different p&c and cams that were presumably matched to the Webers. It is no longer original or unaltered. Replacing the carbs with CIS will not make it original or unaltered with respect to how it left the factory and will likely result in poor performance and will certainly prompt the question of "why" from everyone.

[E Sully]

The 73.5 is a tough car to bring back to original considering the 1/2 year only parts it needs. The 73.5 fuel tank, cis system, pistons, etc. are unique. It is very difficult to even get a set of rings. One Pelican's thread on a top end rebuild shows some of the issues. 1973.5 2.4 cis top end rebuild !
The parts are out there, but can be expensive. I have been lucky finding parts at decent prices, but it takes a while if you don't want to pay high prices.

[kp.sfo]

^^^^ makes tons of sense to me.

Which still begs the question in how far those mods make this particular car uninteresting for potential buyers looking for an original, unmolested car. Personally, I am not particularly "religious" about those changes. On the pther hand, I dont want to find myself in the situation trying to sell the car (much) later again and everyone looks at me like I was trying to sell a modded hot rod for the price of an original car. You see my point?

[RWebb]

a "T" is the lowest, least expensive model for the early cars

also, most people, including me, get rid of CIS whenever they can

I doubt it would make a big difference in the price to have Webers, and it might well make the car easier to sell down the road someday.

that year car is exempt from Calif. smog -- if you are concerned about emissions, then make sure the vapor emissions system works; if very concerned then convert it to EFI which is much cleaner

[E Sully]

kp.sfo,
You saw what I wrote about the 1973 in the Market Place forum.
If concerned about resale, then it makes a lot of difference. I have to disagree with RWebb on a few things. On 1973 and earlier originality makes a huge difference in value. While the "T" is the least expensive, I have read where the 1973.5 is considered to be in the top 10 due to it's drivability. Very good examples are over $30,000.
I looked at his garage and see a heavily modified 1974. There is a big price difference between the '74 and later cars versus '73 and older. That year is probably worth more with modifications. Modified and rarity of solid early cars make the few unmolested cars worth more. Every time someone alters the engine like your example make mine worth more.
While this is not the Early S Registry where some are more fanatical about original, I don't like the idea of hurting a nice collectible to make a track car. Yes, I put Weber's on my 2.4, and later put an '86 3.2 in my car. It was great to drive with the added torque and horsepower, but I still have the original engine, transmission and cis. Two days of work and I can bring it back to original with an engine change. The engine modifications done to the 1973 you mentioned would lower value. It is probably a great car to have fun with, but on resale it would be a modded hot rod worth less. It is possible though to pick up a running 1973 cis engine for a reasonable price for the original parts though. Depends on how modified the case is on the engine in the car.
Even modified, many still like the look of pre impact bumper cars, so it will still have value.
Good luck in your search.

[c911s]

If you need a CIS system I have an extra one for a 73.5.

[kp.sfo]

Originally Posted by c911s

If you need a CIS system I have an extra one for a 73.5.

Carl, thanks for the lead. If i would only have been fast enough to buy your silver 73.5T Targa a few weeks ago I wouldn't have to worry about all this now

[kp.sfo]

Originally Posted by E Sully

kp.sfo,
You saw what I wrote about the 1973 in the Market Place forum.
If concerned about resale, then it makes a lot of difference. I have to disagree with RWebb on a few things. On 1973 and earlier originality makes a huge difference in value. While the "T" is the least expensive, I have read where the 1973.5 is considered to be in the top 10 due to it's drivability. Very good examples are over $30,000.
I looked at his garage and see a heavily modified 1974. There is a big price difference between the '74 and later cars versus '73 and older. That year is probably worth more with modifications. Modified and rarity of solid early cars make the few unmolested cars worth more. Every time someone alters the engine like your example make mine worth more.
While this is not the Early S Registry where some are more fanatical about original, I don't like the idea of hurting a nice collectible to make a track car. Yes, I put Weber's on my 2.4, and later put an '86 3.2 in my car. It was great to drive with the added torque and horsepower, but I still have the original engine, transmission and cis. Two days of work and I can bring it back to original with an engine change. The engine modifications done to the 1973 you mentioned would lower value. It is probably a great car to have fun with, but on resale it would be a modded hot rod worth less. It is possible though to pick up a running 1973 cis engine for a reasonable price for the original parts though. Depends on how modified the case is on the engine in the car.
Even modified, many still like the look of pre impact bumper cars, so it will still have value.
Good luck in your search.

Ed,

Thanks for your perspective - much appreciated as always. I am following your train of thought here, still needed some sort of reassurance from others... Bottom line for me: One more lead to file...