Buying First Porsche 911

[Trevor Long]

Hello,
I would like to ask as few questions from the experienced and helpful Pelican Discussion Board.

I am looking to purchase a 911S in the near furture. I have used the resources on this board, as well as reading books on 911's, to further educate myself on these autos.

Automobiles are my passion! I have owned many different types and makes but have yet to own a Porsche. I also love to do my own maintenance, rebuilding and restoration. So a "high maintenence" automobile does not worry me. I do like to know what I will be gettting involved in.

One car I have my eye on is a local 76' 911S. I know from research that these cars have the well known 2.7, magnesium case engine. I will be looking at this car tomorrow to verify the state of condition it is advertised as. The car is supposed to be very well preserved as it has always been garaged, has excellent original paint and upholstery. The miles are supposed to be around 120K. By pictures I have seen, it looks like a pretty clean car. It has only had two owners.

If the owner can produce receipts showing previous engine work that includes timeserts, studs, chain tensioner replacements, etc., would this be a wise purchase at around 10K, with the intention of driving about 10K - 15K miles a year?

I will not own a car that I cannot drive on a regular basis as I love to drive!

Also, are there any "Rare" colors that Porsches were painted in the mid seventies?

Any advise would be appreciated!


Regards,

Trevor Long

[Jack Olsen]

I assume you know that there is a significant difference (both in terms of performance and collectibility) between the 69-73 911S and the 74-77 911S?

Is there a particular reason why you're looking at the 74-77 cars? Even when they've been properly maintained, the mag-cased engines have a number of shortcomings, especially after 120K. I don't say that to bash the middle-year 911's. With periodic engine rebuilds and other corrective maintenance, they're great. But I'm wondering why you would choose that model over an earlier car or an SC.

[Trevor Long]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for the reply! I haven't really set my heart on that particular car, but I am trying to stay in a particular price range.

I think I have seen pictures of your car. If it's the black coupe I think it is, it's beautiful!

Do you feel that the earlier S's would be more reliable for the milage I will drive? I have heard that you should buy the newest that you can afford.


Regards,

Trevor Long

[epbrown]

The "buy the newest you can afford" advice is misleading in my opinion. It's better to pick the model you like most within your price range and then find a good example. Most of the people on this board can afford fairly new Porsches, yet the percentage with 993s, 996s, and Boxsters is fairly small. I think that if you truly love driving, you might be happier with the driving experience of an older Porsche. How old a Porsche is related to how raw you like the experience.

Other things to consider are your comfort level and lifestyle - do you need good heat, AC, and comfortable seats (in other words, will a woman be riding in the car regularly? ). Do you live in the rust belt, where a galvanized car would be smarter? The snow belt, where you might be happier in a coupe with sunroof instead of a targa?

There's also mechanical skill level: How much work can you do yourself? Are you comfortable rebuilding carbs, tuning fuel injections, adjusting valves, and bleeding brakes? And early model will require more maintenance, and paying someone else to do it will raise the TCO (total cost of ownership).

As for the 2.7 - they can be good cars, though I'd rather buy one that had the engine swapped rather than rebuilt, just to play it safe. Just proceed with caution...

As an alternative: have you thought about a 914 or 912? The same money could buy a kickass version of either model, rather than an iffy 911.

Emanuel

[9XI]

Trevor, what's the price range?

[jtdig64]

Trevor,

I see alot of these posts on here about what car to buy. I thought finally I would put my three cents in. I have a 77s with the 2.7...I have had all the upgrades done, and the engine rebuilt...I love this car and either I got lucky with this 2.7 or there is some dis info out there. My friend has a sc and he is always telling me he wants to swap engines. Do alot of research before you buy, this is my second, and the first one was,,,well how do I say...not to good!!! I did alot of checking on my present car and had a PPI done before I purchased...Be carful of some cars on e-bay...and always see the car before buying////

Hope this helps.

Todd

[pwd72s]

Good advice from all. I would add that BA's old saw about buying the newest car you can afford should be changed to buying the best overall condition car you can afford....

[John Brandt]

Tevor,

I like those mid-series cars too. be careful about structural rust. It appears in strange place on the 911. Get underneath the car and poke around at the front pan, in the rockers (naturally) and the area around the rear torsion and pull the trunk carpeting out and get into the nooks and crannies in the nose. Look carefully at the gaps in the door seam, Especially on the Targas. Bring a magnet. Be careful, becase there are some pretty cars out there that can fool you.

[Trevor Long]

Thanks for the advice everyone!

epbrown,

Yes, I do all the work that you mentioned! I actually planned on doing all labor myself excluding machine work. This is an area of auto's that I like second to driving.

9XI,

I will be trying to stay around 9k- 13K for the car.

My goal is to find the best example I can in this price range.

Thanks everyone. I will be looking at this 76' 911S today. I appreciate everyones advice!


Regards,

Trevor Long

[emcon5]

Originally posted by Trevor Long
I will be trying to stay around 9k- 13K for the car.

That is certainly in the ballpark of a solid SC.

Tom

[9XI]

9k-13k should be doable for an early car. I would drive several early cars to find out what you like. Do you like the "raw" feel? If so, you probably want an "early" car -- 65-73. Do you like a more modern feel -- try to find an SC in your price range.

Whatever you do, save a warchest for upgrades and repairs. I'd spend 10K for the car and save a 3K warchest.

Every 4 or 5 years, I go to a used car dealer that specializes in Porsches. I drive the full range of newer cars -- SC, Carrera, 964, 993. I haven't tried the 996, but I know it will be luxurious -- probably won't like it. But the "driving the range" experience really crystalizes for me what I like and what I don't like. And, in the end, I always stay with my early car.

The same process may have an opposite outcome for you. You sound as if you are ready to buy without having gone through this process. Porsches are seductive. I would plan on skipping the first 5 cars you see. That way you are less likely to get sucked into buying before you are ready.

[Superman]

You're getting some really good advice here. It sounds like you are patient, so I'd echo the above advice to look-but-don't-buy at the first five. Just look, don't fall in love. Porsches with tired engines are still stronger and more fun that ordinary cars, so don't be fooled.

$13K definitely gets you into the range of a good SC, and that (of course) is my suggestion. Even if you want a 'rough' rather than 'luxurious' car, get the SC and if it's too quiet, take out the sound pad and underbody coating. If it's too smooth install stiffer shocks and torsion bars. Like Tyson told me once, the SC engines are non-turbocharged turbo engines, so they are likely some of the very toughest engines ever to be placed in a passenger car.

Be SURE to have a PPI that includes counting head stud nuts. Don't make the mistake I did and buy one with 23 head stud nuts. It should have 24.

Yes, I'd agree that keeping a reserve of $3k for repairs and improvements is nice, but I could also advice spending $12K to get a decent SC and find a way to make the repairs that become necessary, if necessary. Nice SCs are out there for that price. You have to shop smart though. Be patient. Don't let your emotions make the decision.

[Trevor Long]

Thanks for the great advice!

Just how durable/reliable are these SC 3.0 engines?

How many miles on a factory engine/rebuilt engine?

People don't seem too shy about high mile SC's.


Trevor

[ginpunk]

If you don't already have it, I'd suggest the Porsche 911 Red Book by Patrick Paternie. That way, when looking for suspects, you can accurately verify VINS, engines, and options. It can be a telling experience when you whip this little book out in front of the owner...

[stuttgart]

78-83 3.0 is the best DA** flat six Porsche ever produced.. SC's are by far the best daily driver's you can get.

Eric Mckenna
78SC
SCWDP

[stuttgart]

Where do ya live Trevor? if you live close Dayton or Cinci Ohio.. I'll let ya drive mine and after ya do you'll be asking me to buy it.. you'll fall in love with SC's.....
Eric Mckenna
78SC
SCWDP

[Superman]

I'm with Stuttgart. I rebuilt my engine because it had a broken head stud. I assume you are aware that the Dilivar exhaust-side head studs installed by Porsche from the '70s into the '90s are now breaking due to corrosion issues. Had it not been for this head stud, I'd still be redlining the old engine.

My rings did need to be replaced and my valves were getting tired, but the engine would have ran fine for many more miles. Here's a jaw-dropper: The old cylinders had no more than a maximum of .0015" of taper or ovality (wear) anywhere on any cylinder! I think a lot of manufacturers' cylinders have this much imperfection when brand new. My old-time-car-guy advisors were so amused by this figure they ASSURED me that there would be no problems with the new rings smoking. Indeed, the engine did not smoke from the first instant it was started. It had 182,000 miles.

Yeah. I'd say the SC engines are as good as Porsche EVER made, at least in the durability department. If you're in my area, let's go for a ride.

[Saffs]

Originally posted by stuttgart
78-83 3.0 is the best DA** flat six Porsche ever produced.. SC's are by far the best daily driver's you can get.

Eric Mckenna
78SC
SCWDP

Hmmm....don't quite know about that, Eric....
Trevor, I think you can afford a range of early pre '73 cars, middle year cars ('74 - '77) and the SC ('78 - '83).
The first thing to do is read up, which sounds like you're doing. Then get a feel for the look and year of the car you want. Then, drive some cars - preferably of all years and reach your conclusion of the car you want.
Basically:
Pre '73s - not many vices, but corrosion is the big thing. But there's many rust free, dry state ones around. You'd be looking at T and E ones.
Middle year 2.7 cars - corrosion and pulled headstuds, plus premature valve guide wear. Despite the bad rap these get, there's a lot of unmodified ones that are fine. In Euro spec these are quick cars, quicker than SCs, in fact. US spec ones are down on BHP and are slower.
SCs - corrosion much less of an issue. But, in some climates it does happen. The other thing is rusted headstuds snapping - a PPI MUST check for this, as it must check for pulled ones in a 2.7. Strong engines otherwise, though.
Of course, you must get a PPI in all cases, really.
My personal preference? I like rawness of the early cars. I feel the 2.7 were the last 911 to have this - in a lesser form than the pre '73s. The SC is too much of a compromise to the newer 911 buyer of the late '70s who wanted more luxury and less edge.
Just my opinion, drive them all and see!
I have a '73 T (the US spec one with CIS) and I use it everyday. Bought it for $5,000, no rust and looks quite nice and totally original. So far it's been totally reliable all Winter since I got it in Oct 2001.
Good luck.

[emcon5]

Originally posted by Saffs

My personal preference? I like rawness of the early cars.

I need to drive an early car one of these days, because my SC feels pretty damn raw, like a big go-kart.

Where are you located Trevor? I'm open to rides as well, in the east SF Bay Area.

Tom

[Trevor Long]

Great info! I appreciate the ride offers!

I live in Portland, Oregon. However, I do drive to Seattle on a bi-weekly basis for business. I might take you up on your offer Superman. Sounds good.

I did look at a 71' 911T last night. White with black interior, everything original down to the Zenith carbs. It had some minor cosmetic things that concerned me, but I do like the looks of the earlier 911's. Anyway, I will continue my search.

Actually, one reason that I was considering an earlier 911 was for easier engine access and no smog or computer equipment. If this is even something to be concerned with.

Having a later car with more horsepower and reliability is also very attractive. I will be taking the advice of the fellow board members by looking and driving several cars before I make any decisions. I would like to narrow my choices down though.

Thanks everyone.

Trevor Long