H4 "City Lights" as DRLs

[Seattle911]

I am considering running "city lights" (the small 4 watt second bulb in Euro H4's) as daylight running lights along with my parking lights. Is this worth doing? Is the 4 watt bulb bright enough to help others see me? If not, can the wattage be increased? Let me know your thoughts.

I increased the bulb wattage on my parking lights per Daniel Stern but haven't yet installed his DRL relay.

Best,

Bill
1979 SC

[Arne2]

First, my disclaimer—I hate DRLs, have disabled them on my VW, and would never add them to my Porsche. I'd like to think that I am smart enough to know to turn on my lights when they would be desirable.

That said, I have my "city lights" connected as parking lights. IMO, the 4 watt bulbs aren't bright enough to be of value as DRLs. In daylight, there is a soft glow from the 4 watt bulbs, but nothing particularly visible. And I don't think there are any bulb choices for those sockets that are powerful enough to help, either. I'd recommend running either the low beams or fog lights (if so equipped) for DRLs instead.

[RWebb]

Mark me down as a DRL hater also. You have two issues to deal with: legal & practical.

For legal, you need to find the Wash. DMV rules (regulations) on what is required, when (in certain zones like Orygun, or all the time), exclusion for old cars (likely), etc.

Practically, it depends on the conditions - likely fog density.

A high power LED could probably be rigged up - you might find some wrecked Audis at the junkyard as a way to do it cheaply.

[vtrich]

I agree with above responses,....no real value as DRL and are most likely
illegal anyway. BUT,...I think the "city lights" with the 4 watt bulb looks neat. There might be some value in that they do produce a small amount of light which might help some blue hair differentiate you from a pedestrian,....

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by Arne2

First, my disclaimer—I hate DRLs, have disabled them on my VW, and would never add them to my Porsche. I'd like to think that I am smart enough to know to turn on my lights when they would be desirable.

That said, I have my "city lights" connected as parking lights. IMO, the 4 watt bulbs aren't bright enough to be of value as DRLs. In daylight, there is a soft glow from the 4 watt bulbs, but nothing particularly visible. And I don't think there are any bulb choices for those sockets that are powerful enough to help, either. I'd recommend running either the low beams or fog lights (if so equipped) for DRLs instead.

I don't like the DRL either. Also, its not legal to run fogs alone. I just turn the low beams on when required to.

Regardless and on the topic of automotive lighting today, the only time issues come up are with states and locals requiring annual inspections.

Unless you're blinding oncoming traffic, most highway patrol disregard from what someones using today... too d@mn confusing, myriad of configurations, wattage and bulb types, etc..
Look at the vehicles with light covers, grills, tint tail lamps, bizarre photometrics, distance between aux. driving lights (look at the Shelby M-stangs) blue neon cr@p, flashing 'red' safety brake type, blue dots on vintage hot rods and I never hear or see anyone getting a ticket for this stuff.

In Illinois, they will give a ticket for not sporting a front plate but could care less about lights. The law in Illinois also requires one to turn the lights on when its raining / wipers running... even if you are just wiping the windshield. Probably a third of the vehicles don't bother with lights during rain, including cops. I see this all the time. Total joke.

[porwolf]

The Porsche H4, 4W, "city lights" were never designed to be used as when the car is driven! They are really parking lights = "Standlicht" (standing light). They are also designed and wired to be lit with only one side turned on with the turn indicator switch on that side with the car parked, engine off, and parking lights on.

[RWebb]

I like the city lights - they do look cool & I wish I had them.

My understanding is that they WERE indeed designed to be used when the car was driven -- in the city, where the Europeans had good street lighting, but a car needed to "announce" it was in motion.

[porwolf]

RWebb, not true in Germany! There you would get ticketed very quickly. I have a German driver's license, I drove there for years! The 4W lightbulbs are far too week to be noticed in oncoming traffic. Even in Germany street lights are not as bright like daylight!

[Arne2]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

Unless you're blinding oncoming traffic, most highway patrol disregard from what someones using today...

Shoot, around here the police don't even pay attention then! I wish they WOULD stop and ticket people whose lights blind oncoming traffic.

[tharbert]

Originally Posted by porwolf

The Porsche H4, 4W, "city lights" were never designed to be used as when the car is driven! They are really parking lights = "Standlicht" (standing light). They are also designed and wired to be with only one side turned on with the turn indicator switch on that side with the car parked, engine off, and parking lights on.

Parking lamps were used to indicate a parked car on dimly lit or narrow back roads. You were supposed to pull off as far as practical and switch on the light closest to the center of the road. At the time I was over there in the 80's, you could get ticketed for not using your parking lamps. I had a Ford Cortina and a Morris Marina. Both had parking lamps. You could only turn on one side using the turn signal.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by RWebb

I like the city lights - they do look cool & I wish I had them.

My understanding is that they WERE indeed designed to be used when the car was driven -- in the city, where the Europeans had good street lighting, but a car needed to "announce" it was in motion.

Absolutely true. In the 70's and 80's, it was very common to see folks driving around well-lit areas with only 4w running lights on at the front.

City lights can sometimes be better for the driver in fog, too - when it's wet enough that too much glare results from low beams and there's enough other light. Although you do need to bear in mind that other folks probably can't see you ...

When DRL became "safer" (even mandated some places, despite research that seemed to suggest that most people found it difficult to estimate the speed of a fast-moving vehicle in daylight with running lights - and increasingly so the more illumination there was).

Now we're where we are, with the mind set that you have to compete to run brighter/more lights at all costs or you're not "safe". Ask any motorcyclist - the bozos aren't checking for you anyway...

I often run city lights during light drizzle during the day (heh, in the NW, go figure) or during twilight hours - when *I* don't need low beams to see, but folks might appreciate help to notice a low black car that isn't parked... It's what they're for.

[db_cooper]

The 4 watt bulbs were intended as parking lamps. If DRLs are your thing..You can get some 20 watt quartz halogen motorcycle bulbs with the correct base from Domiracer, part number 08-00054..ask for Tony, (877) 451-0354. Price about $9 each.

I've run them..and they are visible and practical as DRLs.

The better solution is to wire your fog lamps so they come on whenever you want, rather than when the headlamp low beams are turned on.

It is an easy wire swap in the fuse box..

You can turn the fog lamps on with the switch..if you want DRls, anytime.

[RSBob]

Originally Posted by porwolf

The Porsche H4, 4W, "city lights" were never designed to be used as when the car is driven! They are really parking lights = "Standlicht" (standing light). They are also designed and wired to be lit with only one side turned on with the turn indicator switch on that side with the car parked, engine off, and parking lights on.

The amount of mis-information on this thread is simply breathtaking. Here is the definition of city lights: Colloquial city light terminology for front position lamps derives from the practice, formerly adhered to in cities like Moscow, London and Paris, of driving at night in built-up areas using these low-intensity lights rather than headlamps.

As for the safety of DRLs:

Nearly all published reports indicate DRLs reduce multiple-vehicle daytime crashes. A study examining the effect of Norway's DRL law from 1980 to 1990 found a 10 percent decline in daytime multiple-vehicle crashes.1 A Danish study reported a 7 percent reduction in DRL-relevant crashes in the first 15 months after DRL use was required and a 37 percent decline in left-turn crashes.2 In a second study covering 2 years and 9 months of Denmark's law, there was a 6 percent reduction in daytime multiple-vehicle crashes and a 34 percent reduction in left-turn crashes.3 A 1994 Transport Canada study comparing 1990 model year vehicles with DRLs to 1989 vehicles without them found that DRLs reduced relevant daytime multiple-vehicle crashes by 11 percent.4

In the United States, a 1985 Institute study determined that commercial fleet passenger vehicles modified to operate with DRLs were involved in 7 percent fewer daytime multiple-vehicle crashes than similar vehicles without DRLs.5 A small-scale fleet study conducted in the 1960s found an 18 percent lower daytime multiple-vehicle crash rate for DRL-equipped vehicles.6 Multiple-vehicle daytime crashes account for about half of all police-reported crashes in the United States. A 2002 Institute study reported a 3 percent decline in daytime multiple-vehicle crash risk in nine US states concurrent with the introduction of DRLs.7

Federal researchers, using data collected nationwide from 1995-2001, concluded that there was a 5 percent decline in daytime, two-vehicle, opposite-direction crashes and a 12 percent decline in fatal crashes with pedestrians and bicyclists.8 However, a 2008 federal study concluded that DRLs have no significant effect on either of these crash types.9

[porwolf]

I think, at least here in California, headlights in the dark have to be positioned at a minimum height. Fog lights, to work efficiently in fog conditions, are usually located as low as possible and therfore don't qualify as driving lights. I think it is a good idea to use the regular headlights at night in order to be easily recognized by others as a car, especiallly to oncoming tarffic.

[ben parrish]

I personally like daytime running lights...anything to catch the attention of the cheeseburger eating, cell phone talking, daydreaming moron in the oncoming car is a good idea. I always run with my headlights on..again, I want to be seen.

[porwolf]

And I do it on twisty mountain roads. This way someone coming from the opposite direction hopefully sees me as early as possible. At daytime I even use the high beams if nobody is ahead of me.

[rusnak]

I agree with the use of DLRs only when parked. When the car is moving, turn on the headlights if you need additional visibility. I posted a pic showing how to wire the 4 watt "city lights" in Bosch H4s. It's easy and worth doing if you have them.

[Canada Kev]

My 1987 Swiss market car has city lights and they are factory configured to be lit at any time the lights are on, either headlights or just the running/parking lights (first notch on the switch). They are visible in lower lighting situations such as early morning/evening/rain, but are pretty much invisible during mid-day.

I believe that most or all of our 911s will light the corresponding turn signal lights steadily in the event the ignition switch is off and the turn signal lever is activated. I have seen others with this feature, and mine does it as well. Park the car and hit the left signal and the left lights light up.

Using the 4w city lights as DRLs is, in my opinion, not going to be terribly effective - just too dim during the day. If this is something you want, you could wire your fogs or regular headlights to run when the ignition is on.

Some don't like day time running lights. It has been federally mandated here in Canada since 1989. I used to be in that camp, and sometimes wish I could turn off the headlights in other vehicles I own, but I can see their benefit. It has been shown to reduce the number of daytime (and undoubtedly night or twilight) collisions, not to mention those in poor weather. Even with the headlight legislation here, there are some retards that just don't turn their lights on when it gets dark. They drive around with no tail lights on and just don't notice as a result of their headlights being lit up. One would think they would clue in to no dash or instrument lights...

[Arne2]

Originally Posted by syzygy

Even with the headlight legislation here, there are some retards that just don't turn their lights on when it gets dark. They drive around with no tail lights on and just don't notice as a result of their headlights being lit up. One would think they would clue in to no dash or instrument lights...

One of my biggest complaints about DRLs. No tails, and since many people never look at their gauges (go figure), they never think to turn on the rest of their lights.

[Canada Kev]

That's the thing I like about most of GM's vehicles - they have a light sensor that turns on ALL the lights. I haven't touched the light switch on my work truck. Ever, I think...