Heel and toe

[J-RAD]

With all the talk about DE events here lately, I got to thinking about heel and toeing. It was briefly mentioned by my instructor (who was excellent by the way) and again briefly touched on in a chalk talk. The thing is that my gas pedal sits significantly deeper/behind the brake. I honestly don't see how I can heel and toe in my car very easily unless there is some sort of adjustment for the pedals. Is this the case for the rest of you guys? Is there a pedal adjustment? Do you even mess with heel and toeing?

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

I'm assuming first that you understand that neither your heel nor your toe actually figure in heel-and-toeing. It's the left side of your sole (on the brake) and the right side of your sole (on the throttle). You _roll_ your foot to give more gas while you're braking. I've never understood the purpose of those replacement pedal sets that provide a gas-pedal extension for your heel.

That said, your 911 should be one of the easiest cars on earth to heel-and-toe. With the throttle pedal in the proper position--and maybe it needs adjustment, which can easily be done--it should be pretty much at the same "elevation" as the brake pedal when
the brake pedal is depressed to a point where it is applying moderate braking pressure. Maybe you need to lengthen the rod--which has threaded ball-end adjustments--between the back of the pedal and the bellcrank behind the floorboard.

Stephan

[expat]

You may also like to do a search of this topic. I think there maybe some really useful info in old posts about this that might help you.

Guys how do I post links to threads found using the search tool?
I tried right clicking on a post and 'copy shortcut' but this is what I got when I pasted it here.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60512&highlight=heel+and+toe

How do you other guys do it so either it shows a link for others to just click on, or you have typed something like 'check this out' or 'click here' ?

Cheers
Mark

[J-RAD]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, Stephan, I do understand that I actually really want to use the ball of my foot and roll from brake to gas but, as you mentioned, I think some adjustment may be needed because even at that I can't really roll to the throttle very easily...it's too far. Maybe I'll look at it at and maybe have someone who is much more skilled at the technique give it a shot as well. I think it should be much easier than it is...but then again I've never tried it in another 911 before so I have nothing to compare my car to.

[dtfastbear]

As Stephan mentioned, your pedals should only really be "lined up" when you are braking very hard. When you are just coasting to a stop at a redlight with moderate braking pressure, the gas pedal will be too far away. If it was lined up at that point, you'd be in trouble on the track when the pedal is significantly lower given much more braking force and a certain amount of fade in the pedal. Make sure you don't adjust the pedals too much for "light" driving.

Have fun learning the technique. It's one of those things that will be very awkward at first, then becomes second nature with practice.

Dean

[GeorgeM]

I'm no pro, but in my 3 years of DE, I've tried "heel and toeing" and it's many variations to see what worked best for me.

Yes, there is a method where you use your heel (on the gas) and toe (on the brake). It is well described in Bob Bondurant's High Perf. Driving book. Most folks seem to do the roll your foot to the gas method that Stephan described to blip the throttle on the downshift.

The gas pedals with the under the brake extension actually work quite well. While your foot is on the brake, you push the extension with your heel to blip the throttle. It may depend on how big your foot is as to how well this works.

The best gas pedal extension/add-on I've used is the "Third Foot" by Wings Engineering. Besides the under the brake extension (which I don't use), it raises the gas pedal surface higher to make it easier to roll your foot over to blip the gas, as you described.

The "Third Foot" is very well constructed and it looks great. It also has adjustment for height and tilt. It ain't cheap, but well worth it to me (I found mine on Ebay at about half price-keep your eye's out, they'll come and go quickly).

However you decide to do it, I don't think it matters much how, as long as your method works and you accomplish the proper matching of revs for the downshift.

Good Luck

[mm86911]

J-RAD,

Assuming the SC pedal setup is unchanged through the Carrera models (to 1989), your brake pedal has an adjustment for raising or lowering (I know it changed for the 1990 and up). Remove the carpeting and the wooden floor board for access - you can lower the brake pedal and raise the accelerator slightly - just enough where both are even at full brake position. This was one of the first things I did to my car at no cost.

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

The problem I have with the under-the-brake throttle extensions is that they're so coarse, being so close to the fulcrum of the gas pedal, that it's extremely difficult to meter the throttle at all. If ya know what I mean...

Stephan

[bento]

i second the wings engineering pedal. really great product designed by engineers for porsche drivers exclusively. makes a big difference when the brakes don't have a lot of heat in them yet. a bit spendy, but worth it.

db

[jkcrewsn]

The PO of my car put an extension on the gas pedal, much like you are talking about. It is simply a metal plate cut to the size of the gas pedal and bolted at all four corners with "bushing" spacers between the pedal and the plate. Having not taken it on the track yet (see http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66894 ), I am not sure if the brake fade such as Dean mentioned will be a problem. But for street driving, I heel and toe all the time. It is super easy with the extension on the gas pedal. At least when I am barefoot. Putting on my shoes (size 13), makes it a little more of an issue. I have to be very careful to not stomp on the gas at the same time as the brake due to the close proximity of the pedals. Dean now has me wondering if I will indeed have a problem with it when the brakes begin to fade, and the brake pedal starts to travel farther downward.

[ChrisBennet]

I was hoping someone would point this out but since nobody did...

Adjusting the brake pedal down: Please wait until you know about brake fade before you throw away that "extra" brake pedal travel. Personally I don't believe an SC or Carrera has enough "extra" to make this a wise modification. I've adjusted the pedal on my Carrera after I upgraded to bigger brakes but I waited until I had really stressed the brakes (multiple drivers running back to back at multiple tracks) and was positive that they wouldn't fade enough to be effected by the adjustment.

Adjusting the gas pedal up: Lengthening the rod at the gas pedal is fine as long as you shorten the linkage at the other (engine) end. If you don't do this you may bend your linkage. Bend it enough and your throttle won't completely close after it is bent.

I'm tellin' ya, if I'm the voice of reason here, we're in trouble.
-Chris

[pete911]

I have a piece of 3/4 inch plywood cut to the shape of the gas pedal duct taped to the gas pedal. I have seen this on many cars. It takes 5 minutes, and can be removed. It makes a huge difference

[Boss]

I bought a new gas pedal and attached the old one (with the hinge cut off) on top of it to build up the thickness. Looks nicer than the wood and still pretty cheap/quick. Also more stock looking.

[304065]

[Boss]

In light of the above, I would clarify that I used a second _stock_ pedal.

[masraum]

The pedals are adjustable, but I think you'll generally want to "heel-n-toe" when you are driving aggressively. If you are driving aggressively then you will be braking aggressively if you are braking aggressively then the two pedals should be close enough together to "heel-n-toe"