Happiness is having a great photographer at the track

[Tidybuoy]

We had auto-x on Saturday and a photographer got a couple of great shots of my car. Too bad my times were a little on the slow side.

[Tidybuoy]

On a seperate note: I've been thinking of replacing my shocks as I feel like the Koni Sports are just too strong for this car. I've noticed that when I jack up the car, it takes the wheels about 30 seconds to fully extend. I have 22mm front torsion bars.

Looking at the photos, doesn't it seem like the passenger front wheel is not extending. And, if this is the case, this could be why I feel every dip in the road as the suspension is not compensating. Just wondering what you guys think..

Using the photos may be hard to analyze the shocks though, as I really don't remember how fast I was going at this point.

[aigel]

That looks wrong, especially the wheel lifting on the outer side (of the turn). What bushings do you run in the front A arms? Are they binding? I would disconnect the strut and torsion bar and see if they move freely.

G

[Staylo]

What size are your rear bars?

[Tidybuoy]

I don't know what size the rears are - I'll find out someday but it's not stamped on the ends.

The front is not binding. I just replaced the front bushings (albeit Weltmeister Poly) but they are not binding. I just think the shocks are too strong for the torsion bars. I increased to 22m thinking that would help but there's not much difference. The shocks are set to full soft and if I stiffen them up, it's even worse.

My plan is to return to 19mm front and 22mm rear and switch to Bilstein HD (not sports). The bulk of my driving is street and so I want the ride wuality to be better.

It does make for a nice photo though

[aigel]

Originally Posted by Tidybuoy

The front is not binding. I just replaced the front bushings (albeit Weltmeister Poly) but they are not binding.

How do you know? Have you tested after installation and a few hundred miles on the suspension.

Originally Posted by Tidybuoy

I've noticed that when I jack up the car, it takes the wheels about 30 seconds to fully extend.

How did you install the poly bushings? Did you machine them to fit the arms mounts?

This has nothing to do with your shocks or torsion bar size. IMO the bushings are binding. That's the reason the suspension needs 30 seconds to extend, as you describe.

The only solution for A-arm bushings aside from stock are the Elephant poly-bronze jobs. If you spend plenty of time with the hard plastic stuff, you may get them to work okay.

G

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by aigel

This has nothing to do with your shocks or torsion bar size. IMO the bushings are binding. That's the reason the suspension needs 30 seconds to extend, as you describe.

I will listen to your advice. Just how loose should the A-Arms be? When I installed mine, the arms moved fine but had light resistance. This was a huge improvement over the worn out stock bushings. I went with the Weltmeister only because I picked up a new set on the classifieds for cheap. However, I'm willing to spend the time and $ to get it right.

[aigel]

I had the hard plastic bushings and installed they were fine, but they started binding and getting noisy over time once the grease had worked its way out. I went with the Elephant setup and this greatly improved the front suspension. I am sure if I would have machined the hard plastic and / or installed grease fittings on those, they should have worked.

You should be able to easily move the arm up and down by hand. With a few pounds of force. I would take off the strut and torsion bar cap on the pass. side and see how easy it is to move. Then report back to us!

G

[euro911sc]

Your setup, on paper, should be awesome. From the photo it looks like its not working though! 1 Wheel up, not unusual... two fronts? Hrmnnnn... How old are the Konis? I doubt its possible for the shocks to be stronger than the t-bars... especially the 22s you have. I have those in my car. They are great. You may need to take it all apart and diagnose each part for issues. I suspect you will find something binding.

Possible lines of attack:

* Take the shocks to a shop w/ shock dyno and test
* Disconnect everything from the a-arms. You should be able to spin them with a single finger.
* If you are using a stock under body sway bar is it binding in the bushings?

Come back and report your findings to us

Best regards,

Michael

[euro911sc]

The ER Poly Bronze stuff is awesome. All disconnected my a-arms would hang straight down from their own weight. I also have the frictionless kit and the self centering kit. Works great at Sebring which is incredibly bumpy!

I have also read a lot of good reviews on the Rebel Racing products, but no 1st hand exp.

The stuff aint cheep, but its the last thing you will ever use.

[Staylo]

Front and rear bars and shocks should be matched. If your rears are stock (assuming the fronts were when you changed them), then you have an inherent imbalance. Fronts and rears should be changed together, and the shocks valved proportionately. If running 22 fronts, your rears should be in the 27-29 range.
I'm not sure it's fair to judge the overall performance if you have only done half the job. That said, you should confirm proper installation.

[Dublinoh]

Front sway bar would be my first thought. Agree that it does not look right.

[winders]

Originally Posted by aigel

That looks wrong, especially the wheel lifting on the outer side (of the turn). What bushings do you run in the front A arms? Are they binding? I would disconnect the strut and torsion bar and see if they move freely.

G

Come on guys. There is no way those photos are representative of what is going on.

The first photo has both front tires off the ground. The second is just a little latter when the left front tire has just touched back down.

Either this car has enough power to wheelie or there is a a terrain issue on that part of the course. Either way, drawing suspension conclusions for those two photos is a waste of time.

Scott

[JAR0023]

I don't kow enough to comment on the suspension but in the first photo you can't see any sidewall on the rear tire. The car is dfinately coming out of a dip or hole. My first thought was the fronts had just popped out of that dip.

J

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by winders

Come on guys. There is no way those photos are representative of what is going on.

The first photo has both front tires off the ground. The second is just a little latter when the left front tire has just touched back down.

Either this car has enough power to wheelie or there is a a terrain issue on that part of the course. Either way, drawing suspension conclusions for those two photos is a waste of time.

Scott

Originally Posted by JAR0023

I don't kow enough to comment on the suspension but in the first photo you can't see any sidewall on the rear tire. The car is dfinately coming out of a dip or hole. My first thought was the fronts had just popped out of that dip.

J

It's true that you really can't judge the suspension based on a photo. But, I will concur with most of the comments as I have been sorting thru the suspension as $ permit. I have posted in other threads with my concern as the suspension has not felt right. The car is very stiff and at high speeds, it does not feel nearly as stable as my 944. This was the reason I upped the front torsion bars to 22mm as I felt that the shocks were too strong for the bars. I had a similar issue in my 944 when I installed Konis, stiff at first yet after increasing the spring rate, the car smoothed out.

In this case, I felt that the suspension was not binding after changing the front bushings. The old bushings were completely worn and the suspension would barely move. It got better with the Poly bushings (maybe not perfect). I also noticed that the swaybar was stiff to move and I am planning to replace those soon. I have looked into the Elephant Racing stuff and $260 is alot but not a deal braker.

Regarding the road surface in the photo: This wasn't much of a bump but it definately has a slight slope.

Regardless, I'm very happy to have the photo because 1) it looks cool and 2) now I can discuss my suspension and show guys what I'm talking about. In section of the course, it has a large bump where the you cross it at a slant and at fairly high speed and probably going 60-60+). To me, a great suspension would smooth this out by having faster reflexes.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by winders

...or there is a a terrain issue on that part of the course. Either way, drawing suspension conclusions for those two photos is a waste of time.

Scott

Yes, seen here. You can also see the rear wheels are behind the plateau on both pics. Looks brutal.

[winders]

Originally Posted by Tidybuoy

In my opinion, this turn in the course/slope is not dramatic enough to get air (heck, I'm in 2nd gear and probably going 30-50mph). To me, a great suspension would smooth this out.

Well, there is no way you are going to get air just because your front suspension is not sorted. You might get one tire or the other off the ground. But not what we see in the photos.

Scott

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by winders

Well, there is no way you are going to get air just because your front suspension is not sorted. You might get one tire or the other off the ground. But not what we see in the photos.

Scott

I stand corrected....this is the section of the course where there is a large bump and I was probably going 60+. I didn't recognize it at first because of the zoomed-in affect. That said, I was probably airborn for less than a second. Dosen't look like it in the photo but I'm probably 200+ft from the fence in the background.

[aigel]

Originally Posted by winders

Come on guys. There is no way those photos are representative of what is going on.
Scott

He says the suspension doesn't feel right and that it takes 30 s for it to expand when jacking up the car. It isn't that he came here with a "look at my AX pic, I had fun" and we started ganging up on him because the picture looks funny. It is the combination of information at hand that led me to the conclusion that the bushings are binding. I have BTDT on my SC.

G

[winders]

Originally Posted by Tidybuoy

I stand corrected....this is the section of the course where there is a large bump and I was probably going 60+. I didn't recognize it at first because of the zoomed-in affect. That said, I was probably airborn for less than a second. Dosen't look like it in the photo but I'm probably 200+ft from the fence in the background.

Like I said, the photos are worthless for any type of suspension analysis.

Scott