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-   -   The MSD Ignition - 'Exposed' (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/676385-msd-ignition-exposed.html)

lindy 911 05-25-2012 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJ851 (Post 6767604)
This seems fairly cut and dry to me.

Tell that to WWEST...

lindy 911 05-25-2012 08:20 AM

Fellas,

I had to leave the computer for a few minutes to regain my composure after reading the line below, I still cannot stop laughing...

"We are dealing with a few bloviating buffoons"

wwest 05-25-2012 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mytoy (Post 6767574)
wwest
Perhaps you should read thoroughly through the post and understand what was said before twisting the information for your arguments. If you read the statements made by Kent he clearly states that the difference of 15 hp was a direct correlation between a single cdi unit firing a single plug and dual cdi units firing two plugs. Nowhere was there a correlation between one cdi unit firing two plugs and two cdi units firing two plugs. There is no definitive correlation of how much HP would be lost if he was to use only one cdi unit for firing dual plugs. That test was never carried out on the dyno. There was only a statement made that there would be a slight loss of power using one cdi unit to fire dual plugs. How much is a slight loss, 2-5 Hp or more nobody knows as this was never determined in the testing.

The point I was trying to make, use from Kent's dyno experience, is that there is NO HARM to the engine if one of the 2 plugs NEVER fires. If the use of a single CDI to drive 2 coils results in the "2nd" plug often not firing the result would likely not be notable...except for the loss of HP, <10%, and slightly higher emissions detrimental to our atmosphere.

calling911 05-25-2012 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 6767596)
About 3 years ago I "gave" my '78 Targa to my nephew, retired naval F14 pilot, living in McCall Id. The CDI first began to act up on his drive returning home to Id.

We were able to limp him home via unplugging the VR until the battery became to low to operate the car, then plugging the VR back in, etc, etc. We inadvertently, wrongly, decided the problem had been a bad battery and then the car was subsequently not driven often enough, or long enough, for teh overcharging matter to raise its ugly head.

Until the spring thaw in McCall.

So here I was, vacation, in McCall Id, in need of a new alternator (integral VR) and an intermittent, heat sensitive, CDI. Plus a leak in the inner rim of the 3 piece BBS on my own Porsche...that one to the left.

Ordered the rim for BBS, the alternator from Pelican, sent the CDI off to Loren, none of my technical "resources", tools, available to me in Id.

Seems like a good explanation actually.. guys lets just knock this off.. enough has been said for the someone to make their own determination one way or another. Frankly every single poster here is more intelligence than the average human by far.. we all have our faults, it is what it is. I've learned a lot here even though the OP was a waste of time in my opinion, but that point was made and more or less proven long ago...

brads911sc 05-25-2012 08:52 AM

Good Post. Agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by calling911 (Post 6767686)
Seems like a good explanation actually.. guys lets just knock this off.. enough has been said for the someone to make their own determination one way or another. Frankly every single poster here is more intelligence than the average human by far.. we all have our faults, it is what it is. I've learned a lot here even though the OP was a waste of time in my opinion, but that point was made and more or less proven long ago...


lindy 911 05-25-2012 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 6767650)
The point I was trying to make, use from Kent's dyno experience, is that there is NO HARM to the engine if one of the 2 plugs NEVER fires. If the use of a single CDI to drive 2 coils results in the "2nd" plug often not firing the result would likely not be notable...except for the loss of HP, <10%, and slightly higher emissions detrimental to our atmosphere.

Again: 9.5:1 does not need twin plugs! If you tried this with a 10.5:1 engine it would detonate badly. To say nothing would happen with twin vs single really is dependent on the CR. If you have a high enough CR to warrant twin plugs, loosing one of them will KILL your engine.

rick-l 05-25-2012 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 6767551)
I have 2 very good, EXCELLENT hardware, electronics, design engineers on my staff at work, one has been with me for almost the entire life of the company, started in '72, incorporated in '74.

There was a discussion here. You can't discuss something with someone whose only response is "buy a scope and get a box" however.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/203100-6-pin-sc-turbo-cdi-unit-repair-documentation-4.html



Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 6766768)
You may note that the 2N3055HV is forward biased using the raw "unfiltered" alternator output voltage as the source.

The only source of reverse biasing, switching the 2N3055HV off, is the secondary winding of the step up transformer. Other than that reverse biasing ability occuring as the 2N3055HV collector current rises, there is basically no limit to the level the collector current can rise.

When the 3055 saturates the current through the inductor goes down and because L di/dt is negative the voltage on the base revereses and it shuts off. There was a disagreement there, some thought the core saturated.

I assume you will see, as I do, that with increased supply voltage, the harder it will become for the "transformer" reverse bias voltage source to switch off the 2N3055HV. So, the higher the supply voltage, the higher the 2N3055HV's collector current will rise for each "switch" cycle.

Let's assume that with a 12 volt supply source the collector current never rises above 6 amps. That would mean with a 16 volt source the collector current will rise to 8 amps. 8 amps into the primary of the step up transformer instead of only 6 amps....

Just so we have an understanding. The capacitor in parallel with the collector emitter of the 2N3055HV simply serves to limit, slow, the primary transformer inductive circuit risetime(***). The 82 volt 10W (24 ohm) Zener is there to protect the 2N3055HV. Once the ignition capacitor is fully charged there will be no load on the transformer secondary to be reflected to the primary so the peak rise of the collector voltage as the 2N3055HV is switched off must be limited.

Z1 does not breakdown and conduct unless you have a really high input voltage

*** The size of this capacitor, ~1MFD, seems extraordinary. Does this capacitor, along with the transformer inductance, form a resonant circuit at some specific, helpful, frequency?

C1 serves as a snubber to limit the voltage on the 3055. It also stores the energy not used in the output capacitor and returns it to the battery


So, now that we know a bit more about the operation of the Bosch CDI, why, how, did mine fail...?

There can be no question that the base causative reason was overcharging of the battery.

1. ) Obviously that might lead to overheating of the 2N3055HV.

2. ) Or it might lead to excessive voltage charge on the ignition capacitor resulting in self-firing of the SCR.

3. ) Lastly, the zener might be forced to clamp the transformer's inductive "kick" much more often.

But there remains one more clue to the failure of my CDI. Even once the source voltage problem was corrected my CDI proved to be to overly sensitive to heat, heating.

We could drive the car several miles before it would die. We could then let the CDI cool on it's own or we could "hit" the CDI case with a spurt or 2 of cool spray and then the car would again start right up. Repeatable.

I'm voting for the 2N3055HV to have been overheated to the level that an internal failure resulted in to much collector leakage current. Collector current flow even with no forwad bias at the base.

What say you, Loren. Do you have records? How did you fix my CDI..?


calling911 05-25-2012 02:22 PM

"There was a discussion here. You can't discuss something with someone whose only response is "buy a scope and get a box" however.

6-pin SC/Turbo CDI unit repair documentation"

What wretched, distasteful person Lorenfb is. I regret reading that thread, I feel like I need to purge the hate from my body. He must not like himself much as no one acts like this who does.

Is there anyway to just not have to see any of his posts? The world would be a better place for me.

snbush67 05-25-2012 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calling911 (Post 6768396)
Is there anyway to just not have to see any of his posts? The world would be a better place for me.

Click User CP

Look under Your Control Panel

click Edit Ignore List

Add a Member to Your List...

Click Okay

JJ 911SC 05-25-2012 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calling911 (Post 6768396)
... Is there anyway to just not have to see any of his posts? The world would be a better place for me.

I'm afraid not... Nothing is free in this world, for every good advise you get some bad one may not be far behind.

Thanks for the pic of your set-up and if I'm going this way, I'll probably contact you for details.

Merci Mon Ami SmileWavy

calling911 05-25-2012 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC (Post 6768528)
I'm afraid not... Nothing is free in this world, for every good advise you get some bad one may not be far behind.

Thanks for the pic of your set-up and if I'm going this way, I'll probably contact you for details.

Merci Mon Ami SmileWavy


Be happy to help but there was nothing to it.. its the same as the 6al install.. only difference is you have to clip a wire for the # of cyl. selection... and I would recommend the msd blaster coil.. why screw around?

Oh.. another nicety is the street fire does not require vibration dampening stand offs.. thats a huge pain in the butt in the install of the 6al.. just use self taping screws on the street fire.. sweet!

wwest 05-25-2012 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindy 911 (Post 6767703)
Again: 9.5:1 does not need twin plugs! If you tried this with a 10.5:1 engine it would detonate badly. To say nothing would happen with twin vs single really is dependent on the CR. If you have a high enough CR to warrant twin plugs, loosing one of them will KILL your engine.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1338012754.jpg

This shows what happens at the spark plug, coil secondary.

Voltage rises, ~30,000 volts, then the plug fires. At the point of firing the voltage drops to a very low level, ~1,000 volts. As long as the arc is sustained the voltage remains at the surpressed level.

Assuming the primary peak voltage was 350 volts then once the plug fires that primary voltage will drop by the same ratio....~13 volts.

wwest 05-25-2012 10:32 PM

http://automotivetestsolutions.com/images/eignition/IgnitionWaveforms.htm


http://www.picoauto.com/tutorials/primary-vs-secondary.html
....

1-ev.com 01-04-2015 11:30 AM

Any Updates from TODAY's perspective ?

snbush67 01-04-2015 01:03 PM

Update, MSD has been exposed as still making quality products. I especially like the digital AL 2 and have locked out my distributor and have programmed a timing curve. Love it.

florent78 04-20-2016 03:53 AM

hi

can you share your new timing curve ?

how many degrees did you add ?

thanks

snbush67 04-20-2016 10:42 AM

Me?

I am still looking at curves and recommendations, haven't messed with it in a while, but here is where I am at:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/795056-msd-6al-2-digital-programable-install-distributor-lockout.html#post7913638

Quote:

Originally Posted by snbush67 (Post 7913316)
Bumped static timing to 8 Degrees BTDC. Total 34 degrees. 9.5:1 compression Ratio.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1392509392.jpg



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