E15 can wreck engines

[ratpiper71T]

Just a note here. I think, based on some comments here, that some are confusing e15 and e85- not the same thing-e15 is 85% gasoline, e85 is 85%ethanol.

[tirwin]

Just a note here. I think, based on some comments here, that some are confusing e15 and e85- not the same thing-e15 is 85% gasoline, e85 is 85%ethanol.

Right. Point is that that engines that are not designed for it -- either E85 or E15 --will likely experience premature wear and/or failure.

And E85 has 33% less energy as compared to regular gasoline.

[jeff eelkema]

Engines love alcohol, always have, ask any racer. ethanol is just alcohol!

Our V8 supercars here in Australia run E85 (thats 85 % ethanol) no engine problems. 1000km races, 600+hp. Reality is ethanol on its own doesn't hurt engines but it can hurt fuel systems not designe to run it. Mixtures do need to be adjusted when using ethanol as the leaner mixture that results can cause problems. Ethanol has a low flash point so can cause hot start issues in carbed cars in hot conditions.

The food to fuel issue is another problem but turning waste into ethanol makes sense. Its happening now. Getting away from imported oil from corrupt cartels might also be a good thing. Using taxes to prop up farmers is something voters need to talk to their politicians about, either for or against

I'm in the car industry (mechanic in a car club with 1.2 million members and I deal with thousands of tech enquiries a year) and have never seen any proof of engine damage from using ethanol where the manufacturer says its OK.

Most later model cars are OK with 5-10% and efi systems with O2 sensors compensate for mixture changes. Older cars should stick with non ethanol blended fuel.

BMW Aus official position is all models post 1990 are OK on E5 or E10. Porsche Aus say all models pre 2007 are OK E5 and all models post 2007 are OK E10. Ethanol has slightly less BTU so consumption will increase by around 3-4% with E10.

It is renewable which is not the case for oil. Lots of myths around ethanol and not much informed debate.

I'm happy to use in it my late model non P cars but use non blended premium in my bikes and won't use it in my 69E when I get it finished. If I have to use ethanol, I will simply adjust mixtures to suit and all new hoses are ethanol compatible anyway.

[S2GART]

The major concern many of us have is that we don't have a choice. Here in New England, every pump I have seen has 10% Ethanol. The other issue with ethanol (may be a myth, I don't know) is that ethanol promote water/moisture build up in your tank. Water and gas......not a good combo. So when there was talk about increasing the ethanol ro 15%, it got many of us concerned. Also, and this is fact, the owner's manuals for all of my cars ranging from the nearly 30 year old 911 to our 2004 Volvo say the same thing about ethanol. "Do not use gasoline with more than 10% ethanol".

[drmatera]

Originally Posted by ratpiper71T

Just a note here. I think, based on some comments here, that some are confusing e15 and e85- not the same thing-e15 is 85% gasoline, e85 is 85%ethanol.

I know the difference. My point was if E85 has no ill effect then the E15 is a non-issue..

My only argument is on the statement E15 can wreck engines... That is simply not true in and of itself. The article using the term "can" is not an endorsement of "will". Hell driving your Porsche is the #1 cause of engine wreckage. Stop believing everything you read and think for yourself.

[tadd]

Yes ethanol has less energy content per gram, but it has a higher anti knock resistance, so you can up the CR or boost and get very close to the same amount of work out of it because of more efficent combustion conditions. Propane is in the same arena at 108 octane rating. Build the motor for it and it can acheive equal or better mileage despite not having the same energy content per gram.

Gasoline will be a tough act to follow, but ethanol or propane are really the only near future viable choices. Hydrogen from nukes is the ultimate, but that is going to require a compete infrastructure change so the activation energy is high to get there (cost).

Everything for gas is good to use with ethanol just deal with the soft parts (convert to viton). Propane is the other 'stealth' fuel choice. Alot of gas stations have it and most every camp ground does refils. You can live on propane. Since its already a gas and low molecular weight it burns clean. Your oil will actually wear out, not crud out. No internal engine corrosion due to acid formation...

If we use ethanol as a fuel source, it, like diesel, will HAVE to come from algae. Exponental growth, simple enough for genetic tinkering, and direct atmospheric CO2 use. Near 50% of the mass can be 'oil' in some species. No higher plant will ever meet these advantages.

Or we could run our cars on solyent green .

t

[Bill in OKC]

e10 causes my chainsaw lots of problems, night and day difference with real gas. e10 also causes nylon gas tanks to swell and leak on motorcycles. e10 causes steel tanks to rust on motorcycles. While *pure* e10 might not cause as many problems, the watered down stuff found in many filling stations causes many problems because of the extra water - and that is some high-priced water you are paying for. Regular gas does not hold water like e10 does. With those known (to me) problems I am not an e10 fan.

[dlearl]

Originally Posted by gregwils

In PA, Sunoco sells 94 octane. Can they use "closest rack" gas for a higher octane fuel? Thanks.

In NV, certain Rebel stations sell 100 octane, ethanol free "Racing" fuel. Costs a fortune, but it's the only pump gas that doesn't reek havoc on my 968's knock sensor. The SC seems to tolerate anything pretty well.

BTW, I stopped in the MC shop where my son works to have a safety inspection done on one of my bikes yesterday. They were selling an additive that allegedly bonds with the alcohol and renders it harmless to susceptible parts. (In motorcycles, ethanol is a real pain as it "swells" the plastic gas tanks on modern bikes.) I'll get a brand name and post it.

[HawgRyder]

Propane is great...and BTW is about 130 octane I believe.
I have seen the insides of an engine with over 100K miles on it...running Propane...and it looked like it just came off the assembly line.
With Propane...you can run over 12:1 ratios...and I have seen over 14:1 run in some cases (makes for tons of HP).
Bob

[lupin..the..3rd]

Originally Posted by tirwin

I love how the industry trade group behind E15 claims it's ok because it's used in NASCAR. Because there's no difference between a NASCAR engine and let's say the engine in a Toyota Camry.

But they have a Toyota Camry in NASCAR, so of course it's safe for Toyota Camrys.

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by jeff eelkema

Engines love alcohol, always have, ask any racer. ethanol is just alcohol!

I understand that the very first Porsche cars were actually designed and were running on pure alcohol. The reason being that in those first years after World War II in Austria, the Porsche car birth place, gasonline was more difficult to find than alcohol!

[manbridge 74]

What is often missed in ethanol discussions is the Miami Vice factor. Ie; the first rule of street drugs combined with basic human greed is cut it, cut it, then cut it some more.

I remember a BMW shop owner in Texas who found that E10 in his area was more like E30 after he got fed up with customers complaining with issues they assumed was due to his work. He decided to test it for himself. Search for it. The means to test % content are also on the net.

I tested our fleet gas in winter and E10 was actually E5. Probably due to winter blending and altitude.

[drmatera]

Originally Posted by tadd

Or we could run our cars on solyent green .

t

its people............................... for gods sake

[Bill in OKC]

I wonder how much of the water in e10, e85 is naturally occurring from condensation or if a garden hose has been applied lol.

[drmatera]

garden hose of coarse..

[tadd]

Ok, I kinda get the rust thing... But there is water even in gasoline. All one needs to do to deal with it is to up the aromatic content of the gas used. Benzene azeotrops 80:20 with water. Toluene is a bit less. The over the counter water stabilizers are naphtha - a unrefined mix of aromatics . Becides, the water that is pulled in from the air by the hydroscopic nature of pure alochols won't cause rust. Pure water is 18 Mohm resistance. You need junk to act as an electrolyte. So keep your tank clean fellas .

Yes there are a few rubbers and plastics that aren't optimal. But really, what on an early Porsche is needed to change? I just finished stripping my 67 SWB to the last nut and bolt. It's a steel tank, aluminum hardline, and rubber hose connections. Swap for viton and rejet the carbs. Not rocket science.

Propane is a bit different in that it's knock resistance is significantly temperature sensitive. So optimal use of it is when sprayed in as a liquid. It also has a massive latent heat of vaporization, so charge cooling as the liquid evaporates is excellent. No intercoolers needed on a turbo. So the typical propane carbs, impeco (sp?), that measure gas to the engine after warming the liquid with engine coolant really aren't getting the best it can offer as a fuel.

t

[brads911sc]

You are probably ok with that because no one else sells it... and i think sunoco owns most of their stores. At any rate, they have to deliver what they advertise. I think the issue is Chevron 92, Exxon 92, shell 92, grocery store 92... probably all coming from the same fuel rack. they put the additives in at the deliveery so thats the only difference. dont believe for a second that the Ghandi mart selling gas from 40 year old pumps is selling you ethanol free gas just because its on some list or not labeled on the pump...

The additives are also a joke. 3,000 gallons of Chevron has about 20 ounces of additive. How many PPM you think that actually is.
Dont fall for the hype.

Originally Posted by gregwils

In PA, Sunoco sells 94 octane. Can they use "closest rack" gas for a higher octane fuel? Thanks.

[brads911sc]

One other thing. Go to your local FLAP and look at the primary ingredient of just every gas additive made. Techron incl. you guess it... Ethanol.

I think that Gas with Ethanol reacts harshly to sitting. But if you drive your car, it is not going to harm it.

[j911brick]

Originally Posted by tirwin

Glad you are not having any problems. Plenty of auto makers are against it. I know BMW has stated that they are against it after their own testing. I don't think this is a passing fancy.

I had to get the fuel pump in my BMW replaced last year. They said it was a common problem with fuel in some parts of the country. I heard that some claims were denied if you used fuel with over 10% ethanol.

[SiberianDVM]

I needed gas this morning going to work. I usually get Shell 92 with 10% ethanol at Circle K because they have good coffee. Right now Shell 92 with 10% ethanol is $3.62.9/gal.

Well, their pumps weren't working and they didn't seem to be in any hurry to fix them, so I drove down the road to Greg's Gas Plus, one of the better, cleaner, generic convenience stores that sells a lot of gas. The pump that I pulled into in my low-caffeine daze turned out to have only 93 octane ethanol free gas, for $3.85.9/gal. So, I filled up the BMW 335xi, got some coffee (which sucked) and hit the road. Oh, first I cleared the BMW's trip computer, which showed that I had been averaging 25.7 mpg in a 10% city, 40% 2 lane blacktop, and 50% Interstate cycle. This trip computer has been very close to real data over the 2 years I have had the car.

$3.629/25.7 mpg = 14.1 cents per mile

I drove the remaining 32 miles to work on 2 lane blacktop, 45 to 65 mph. When I got to work, the trip computer said I was getting 34.5 mpg.

$3.859/34.5 mpg = 11.2 cents per mile

Since I drive about 100 miles a day, I go through a full tank in 4 days. I plan on using only ethanol free for the next couple of weeks, then I will post my mpg comparison.