1976 911 Question(s)

[evan.ruff]

Hey guys,

I've always wanted a 911 since I was a boy and I'm interested in purchasing my first 911. I'm an engineer by trade and, I've had a 1995 M3 for the past 10 years and have enjoyed working on various projects on the car. I'm interested in a US model 911.

As I've started looking at the various models, I really appreciate the clean lines of the pre-1973 cars; however, I believe they're getting a bit spendy and I'd like to focus on the accodian bumper models. From looking at various pictures and reading more about the cars, I really really like the following 1976 3.0:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b9/F1000026.JPG

Specifically, I like the chrome trim on the handle, headlights and glass surrounds. I like the clean valence, polished wheels and the fenders. I was wondering if these features are 1976 specific or if they were standard on other models? Also, I've read some conflicting information about the rust coatings on the 1976 model. Was the 1976 model sealed with the newer coatings or are they particularly rust prone?

As for the 3.0 engine itself, I understand that hydraulic tensioners are a must-have upgrade, as well as the lower covers to prevent oil weaping. Is there anything else about the 3.0 engine specifically that a buyer needs to be aware of? Other than headers, are there any other bolt-on modifications that can be done to squeeze more performace out of the engine?

The interior is something that I haven't been able to find very much information about. Are parts generally available? Does the 1976 car share any parts with other models? Is there a RealOEM.com like site for Porsche that has all the parts numbers and diagrams? Is PelicanParts the defacto source for parts?

Thanks!

Evan

[RoninLB]

go for a 1987-89

now is the time for a real nice buy for a real nice 911 @ $20k

[OsoMoore]

Full-body galvanization started with the SC's in 1978. SCs were 78-83. Carreras started in 84. They are a little more spendy, but have some advantages over SC's.

I'm not an expert on what models had what, however. I would recommend picking up a copy of Zimmerman's The Used 911 Story. It had lots of details on pros and cons of over the years.

[javadog]

Are you looking at the specific car in your photo, or did you just pull a sample picture from the internet? You might also let us know where you are, as there are some different models in the various markets.

The car in your linked phot would have had a 2.7, not a 3.0. Porsche did offer a Carrera 3.0 in some markets in 1976 (and 1977) but that's not it in the picture. Depending on what part of the world you are in, a '76 may or may not be a good choice for you.

The chrome trim was an option up until around 1980. The polished wheels are not stock, but an owner's upgrade. The lack of fog lights was standard in some markets for quite some time. In the US, it is a little rare to see one without them. A 1976 was fully galvanized but that doesn't matter as much as where and how the car spent its life. There are a lot of common interior parts in that era but there are also some detail differences from year to year. There were quite a few changes from 1976 to 1977, for example. Parts are generally pretty available, either new or used. Pelican is a good source for parts and they have links to parts diagrams in the parts section of the site.

The 3.0 engine was different in some ways every year it was built. You'd have to get a little more specific to discuss what you can do with one, although making lots more horsepower over stock will cost lots of money. Small gains are possible without too much trouble, but we're talking 10 or 20%, unless you rebuild the thing to a different specification.

JR

[evan.ruff]

@OsoMoore - The Used 911 story has been ordered.

As for the specific car, I'm really not there yet at all. I just came across that picture and thought it looked very nice.

@javadog,
As for HP gains, I'm really only interested in that 10-20% range that you're stating. I more on the headers/cat/MegaSquirt sort of things, not rebuilding anything to go nuts. I'm in the US markets, so I imagine that removing all the smog stuff will probably be the best approach, then going from there?

[ossiblue]

Javadog has the best overall advice, IMO, for your questions. If you truly like the look of the car in the link, you will need to stay within the model years 74-77 as the SC (with the stock 3.0) had wider rear fender flares as did all later models. If you don't mind the wider rear fenders, you can include some later models that fit your trim/look requirements.

As mentioned, you need to be more specific about your needs and location as that will help narrow down the variables. Complete galvanizing may not be an issue for you after all and even the 74/75 cars had galvanized lower body panels.

Edit: You responded as I was typing. Since you are in the U.S. market and are considering removing the "smog stuff," you need to be very clear on your state's requirements. California, for example, exempts 75 model year and earlier cars from smog inspections though, technically, the car should have all the equipment. Modifying any engine components on post-75 cars can (and often does) lead to registration headaches. Your state's requirements and procedures are important to know before you buy especially if your new purchase has already been modified by a previous owner.

[Dublinoh]

Often heard advice: Buy the newest model, then best example you can afford. Air cooled 911 models ended with the 1999 996 model. When you think you know what you want have a PPI (pre purchase inspection) performed on the desired car. Use this for negotiation and to avoid a car that needs major work (like an engine rebuild). You want to avoid $10-15K repair on a $20K car. A 1995 M3 is a very modern car when compared to a 1976 911. I would suggest a 1987-89 Carrera, a 964, or a 993.

[evan.ruff]

@Dublinoh - Ha! I actually have a 1995 M3 that's my daily driver. It's... not giving me much love, I'm afraid. Also, GO BUCKS.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by OsoMoore

Full-body galvanization started with the SC's in 1978

Actually, a couple years before that. The thing I mentioned before though was that full galvanizing doesn't guarantee no rust. I'd rather have any car from a dry climate than a galvanized car that has seen lots of use in wet weather, like you find in Europe. Any SC or later car that has been parked outside for much of its life in a wet climate will have issues.

Back to the original question... IF you're in the US, then all of the '74-77 cars will have a 2.7 liter engine, unless it has been swapped. A few of the '76 and '77 Carrera 3.0 cars were privately imported and those are oftern good cars. If you are looking at unrestored original 2.7 cars, I'd take a '74 or '75 over a '76 or '77. If you consider a car that has an engine rebuild by a qualified shop (not all that many of those out there) then any year is fine. If you want a 3.0 and can't find a Carrera 3.0, a '78 or '79 SC has many similarities and feels fairly comparable.

You really ought to read up a little about the cars, before going much further. Get a copy of Brian Long's two books covering that era, maybe a copy of The Red Book, etc.

If you go with a 3.0, add an earlier style exhaust system (SSI copies of the heat exchangers used up through 1974), make sure the injection is properly tuned and leave everything else alone. Stick Weber or PMO carbs on it, if you decide you're a masochist, and avoid aftermarket injection like herpes.

JR

[Josh D]

I would also like to add that it is possible to backdate or forward date the looks of the car, so it is more important to focus on the mechanicals and overall condition than on the look of a specific year.

[RWebb]

yes it is possible - labor is spendy unless you are good with painting; but you can put that off into the future

I would not get a late car with a G-50; they are heavy and that tranny is smooth but less 911-like

conversely, a '76-77 will not have all the rustproofing and other good things on an SC

the very best mid-year is the 1974 - it is the lightest of the bunch and IIRC has a decent set of exhaust headers on it; it also lacks the much maligned thermal reactors of later cars (same for a 49 state '75 BTW)

the other good end of the bumper car spectrum is 1984-early 86 -- they have the superior EFI and the 915 trans.; you can rip out the heavy luxo-crap that P AG installed to get richer buyer to bite and make it into a fine sports car

I posted a couple of threads all about what model years got what sort of rust protection "galvanizing" so you'll need to do a search

BUT... the bottom line is condition -- be sure to get a PPI done by a mechanic experienced with OLD 911s

and do not buy any of the 1st 5 cars you look at...

[Bill Verburg]

Thyssen steel(galvanized) was used for floor pans and inner panels at least from '72, by early '76 all sheet metal except the roof was Thyssen steel and by the end of '76 even the roof was Thyssen.

As noted above it is not a guarantee of no rust forever in all environments, the original rust warrantee was for perforations that developed w/i 6yrs

[matt gineo]

Even though I've received tons of very valuable information on this forum, I'm glad I didn't listen to all the horror stories regarding the 76 CIS 2.7 or I never would have purchased mine. I think I broke every rule imaginable. I even did my own PPI. The Pelican Website and PCA even rag on the terrible 76 2.7 and do their best to scare away potential buyers. PCA even says this about the 76 "For the most part, they aren't collectible. They also aren't cars to restore, although you can always improve them bit-by-bit. They aren't cars that will grow dramatically in value anytime soon and won't tend to draw a crowd of Porsche folks to admire. But none of that makes them any less fun". I guess none of the Porsche folks will want to talk to me or admire my car?

Pelican Sez the following:It's a tragic story. Porsche increased the displacement of the 2.4 without providing enough cooling and, to add insult to injury,
the US models had thermal reactors (except for 1974) that got REALLY hot. The result is, among other things, head studs that pulled out of the crank case (due to thermal expansion of the cylinders) and destroyed valve trains. All of this resulted in an average engine life of about 50,000 miles (your mileage may vary --
HA! I was *waiting* to use that line).

1. All 2.7's will have broken head bolts and will require millions to repair. (all mine were fine)
2. Thermal Reactors will fry your engine. (My engine was not fried and I simply removed mine)
3. All 76's have terrible, unstoppable oil leaks. (I replaced my valve cover gaskets, No leaks anywhere)
4. Do not buy the first 5 cars you look at. (I bought the first one I looked at)
5. All 2.7's have warped valve covers (mine were fine)
6. The engine will be screwed because of the 5 blade fan. (I simply bought a used 11 blade fan for $250 and slapped it on)
7. CIS is a piece of crap and will never run right (I cleaned the fuel tank, fuel lines, replaced injectors, fuel filter, rebuilt the WUR, Rebuilt FD, and rebuilt Fuel Pump) She starts and runs like a dream after sitting for 15+ years)
8. I didn't have the luxury of starting and running the engine before I bought it. It had been sitting in a garage for 15+ years and the entire fuel system was a gunked up mess because the fuel was never drained.
9. Be prepared to spend a fortune on the brakes, engine etc. if the car has been sitting more than 10 minutes. (My brakes, suspension, electrical system, gearbox, body, trim, chassis etc. were in almost perfect condition)
11. Don't buy a Targa, the top will leak, rattle and blow out your eardrums at speeds exceeding 15mph. (My top is perfect)
12. Your car will be a rusted out mess if it's not stored in a climate controlled, air conditioned, dehumidified, heated garage. (not one speck of rust anywhere on mine)
13. Your compression will be screwed if the car has been sitting around for an extended period of time. (my numbers turned out just fine)

And I got her for the grand total of $7,500!!

To make a long story short don't believe everything you read. Take your time, do some research and go with your gut as well as your brain.

Again, I have gained lots of valuable information on this forum and I've saved countless hours of my time and tons of MY $$$ by reading the great posts found here! Thank you.

And last but certainly not least, DO NOT EVER SEND YOUR ENGINE TO MOTORMEISTER!!

[Josh D]

Very good points, Matt, and beautiful '76! I would certainly admire your car if I came upon it.
I to broke a few of the rules when I bought my SC. I'm coming up on my 1 year anniversary with mine as a daily driver, and its been a pleasure to drive and work on. I've dropped a modest sum of cash taking care of some things, but nothing that I wouldn't have expected to do on a 30 year old car.

[matt gineo]

Originally Posted by Josh D

Very good points, Matt, and beautiful '76! I would certainly admire your car if I came upon it.
I to broke a few of the rules when I bought my SC. I'm coming up on my 1 year anniversary with mine as a daily driver, and its been a pleasure to drive and work on. I've dropped a modest sum of cash taking care of some things, but nothing that I wouldn't have expected to do on a 30 year old car.

Thanks Josh, My next project is to lower it a few inches and replace the chain tensioners. Have fun this summer!

[Josh D]

Originally Posted by matt gineo

Have fun this summer!

Our summers are like your winters. They are not fun, you just have to get through them!!

[matt gineo]

Stay Cool!

[jsbfoto]

I have to agree with Matt on this one. There are no hard and fast rules on these cars, some years may be more prone to certain issues but it doesn't make them bad cars. Saying never to buy the first 5 cars you look at makes no sense, put your emotions aside and look at the important things on the car. It may be that the very first car you look at is the best one out there. If you are not mechanical or have your doubts on what to look for, bring someone who does. Do your homework, spend as much as you can afford to buy the nicest one and then enjoy it.
One thing I will say, most of the mid-year through the '83 SC's are all about $20k cars. You can buy a close to perfect one for $20k, you can buy a nice $15k one and spend $5k making close to perfect, you can buy a rough one for $10k and spend $10k making it nice and so forth.
Of course there are always those awesome deals out there, but they are far and few between for the most part.
I love my '76, it's had a lot of mods, including a later model 3.0 engine update, the car has no rust, most everything works and I get a ton of compliments everywhere I go. I'm slowly backdating,doing all the work myself including paint, and by the time it's all said and done I'll be in it about...........$20k, just seems to be where you end up.

[Brown747]

Originally Posted by jsbfoto

I have to agree with Matt on this one. There are no hard and fast rules on these cars, some years may be more prone to certain issues but it doesn't make them bad cars. Saying never to buy the first 5 cars you look at makes no sense, put your emotions aside and look at the important things on the car. It may be that the very first car you look at is the best one out there. If you are not mechanical or have your doubts on what to look for, bring someone who does. Do your homework, spend as much as you can afford to buy the nicest one and then enjoy it.
One thing I will say, most of the mid-year through the '83 SC's are all about $20k cars. You can buy a close to perfect one for $20k, you can buy a nice $15k one and spend $5k making close to perfect, you can buy a rough one for $10k and spend $10k making it nice and so forth.
Of course there are always those awesome deals out there, but they are far and few between for the most part.
I love my '76, it's had a lot of mods, including a later model 3.0 engine update, the car has no rust, most everything works and I get a ton of compliments everywhere I go. I'm slowly backdating,doing all the work myself including paint, and by the time it's all said and done I'll be in it about...........$20k, just seems to be where you end up.

Like!!

[Dublinoh]

Everything everyone said in this thread is right....there are no rules that always apply...and Go Bucks!