Have another drink Loren and keep going..don't get discouraged, you have a gentleman's wager to honor and prove your point.

http://images.reachsite.com/39207ab8...5779.PNG?gen=1

Are there any particular reasons why the tuner/chippers wouldn't integrate knock sensing capabilities with the package? How would one go about installing such sensing hardware? Is it that difficult, on the software side?

Best!

Doyle

Also , it's unfortunate that when presented with facts of many,many years of real life experience tuning internal combustion engines that the OP cannot see past the smokey haze in his safe little bubble of ignorance. There is no value to further discussion because no one wants to discuss what is inside your ***hole.

Is it odd given the wealth of knowledge on this board that no one backs you up, loren?

There is a reason.

dshepp, check these guys out: J&S Electronics SafeGuard Indivdual Cylinder Knock Control

I don't need to reread the initial post, your motive is create ***** storm. Again. Yawn.

LOL - that is funny stuff right there. Loren, as far as I can tell, you haven't actually posted any actual facts. You posted your opinions, and some fake facts.

Your opening post was an attack, so that makes your post here double-funny! Good one, man.

Okay guys, I've never dyno'd my race car.

-But-

Swapped Motronic boxes- Same car, same track, same driver (me), same temp and humidity, same tires, same gas, yada yada....

Just a quick stop in the pits, swap boxes, head back out.

The result?

The aftermarket chip beat the stock chip by 1.5 seconds per lap.

Some would call that "Significant"
In racing, we call that "Eternity"

Is the stopwatch (okay, transponder) facts, or just an opinion?

Only $XXX for 1.5 seconds a lap? I'm guessing you would be first in line for that kind of deal the next time it was offered!

I am not sure as to why you would attack everyone who builds or modifies their car using tuner companies and their products.
You have tested and proven that the tweaks you know about work or fail as your test data back up.
So why not publish that with the intent to help.

I personally have worked developing engines far beyond what the manufacturer intended. This was not as simple as turning the distributor or re chipping the computer. There were many failures, However the main progress for the development was technology.

Technology with fuels, Metals, way's of doing things, injectors, ECU's, sampling rates for lambda, etc etc.... all help improve performance. And it has changed a lot since the build of the engines we did.

The team I worked for spent a lot of money doing so. Way more than most back yard builders would invest.

Most people who invest their money with a tuner get what they pay for.

More than they had!

Thanx!!!!! Great reads.

Doyle

8 Jan 2010 Ray Stewart rides the wall Huntly Placemakers Speedway NZ Super Saloon Champs - YouTube

Just to give an example.... The car that is leading this Super saloon race is 4 cylinder (fj20). It is running against 800+ HP methanol injected V8's. Yes it has similar HP, the trick is to get low rpm torque, running single gear when racing a 4cyl engine in a true power class took a few years but we got there. Shame in this race Ray hits the wall.

In my short time on this board,
 

I have observed if you present an alternative view or have a differing viewpoint, then you will ultimately be personally attacked for your beliefs. It is not right, but that is just the way it is on the bird. Why waste your time arguing with a group who will never accept your point of view? To prove your point, you should present all of this via scientific experiments (videotaped preferably) and not just throw out a graph. Even I could throw out a graph or chart that says whatever I want it to say. You need to do more than that to prove your point and your research. Otherwise, these folks will never accept what you have to offer. Just my two cents, take it for whatever it is worth.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat.gif

People are very rarely attacked merely for what they believe. It is when they try and tell other folks *they* are wrong for what *they* believe - that's when the fireworks start.

Loren has a very serious credibility problem. He wants to try and tell folks who have empirical evidence that the data they possess is false. And if that's not bad enough, he's trying to claim that somehow his (not-shown) data is correct. If his beliefs are borne out by actual facts, then he will gain credibility. Not enough to attack folks who do not believe as he does, but enough to support his opinion.

Please do not conflate facts with opinion. Nor conflate simplistic logic with actual verified facts. Re-read Loren's posts with your own quote (above) in mind, and tell me it doesn't equally condemn Loren's approach to this whole business.

Also, please don't think that somehow Pelican is unique in how it approaches unproven claims. Pretty much ANY enthusiast group will not accept challenges to orthodoxy without fairly serious proof. After all, long-standing standard operating procedure doesn't arise from the ether - it comes from hard-won experience. Data, if you will.

HA! .. :D

You believe that? What an idiot!

...is the typical response. ;) (some use a different tone, but the attack is still there)

Rarely. It *does* happen. But usually, the opening salvo is from the folks offering dissent from the current orthodoxy. And *usually* it comes when they are asked to present actual facts.

It's not like I haven't seen the very same thing in 20 different venues over 20 years on the intardnet. Just watch - you'll see.

Steve and others indicate max. hp is made near 12.6AFR.
It has been said 3.2 cars run rich at WOT and high rpms. I hooked up a high bandwidth O2 and got readings in the 10's also confirmed with a dyno run.
If we combine these two anecdotal statements, one could assume some added hp is available, exactly how much, not sure. If that is 5hp or 10hp, that's an improvement, it is worth that to you or not.
The contrary conclusion related to reliability - if the factory did this to save the cat at sustained high speeds, if true, that could be a consideration.
Possibly the tread at this point, is beyond what I'm saying.
If I had the time/money I would get a SW chip programmed when he is watching the dyno results.

This was my point
 

My point is lorenfb should scientifically show his data and conduct tests to back up his claims, nothing more. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat.gif

That's not what Steve's dyno runs show. It's 13:1 or slightly leaner. That is the same that I saw on my race bike, both 600cc and 1000cc, engines.

Scott

This is true for most NA gasoline engines with reasonably well designed cylinder heads.

Loren,

The facts always seem to get lost in your replies. So lets play a little game of question and answer to clear things up.

What year was the 3.2 911?

Were you actually present during the dyno runs?

What dyno was used?

Did you do the tuning, or someone else?

Who paid for the session, the car owner or you?

Surely you have some pics, a reciept or something to show you were there?

Why is it that you have not responded to Steve W's 100K challenge? I understand that is a large sum, but he may even do it for $100.00.

You know, I really have nothing against Lauren, but I do think he does himself a disservice by starting these threads.

Wayne makes an excellent point when he suggests that chipping a car may lead to a need for higher octane fuel. However, if you are already using premium, and have unrestricted access to it, then a chip and exhaust upgrade would be the easy way to a little more of what Dr Porsche intended form these cars.

Has anyone EVER posted a thread about how they damaged their 911 with a SW chip ? EVER ? LOTS of testimonials and real world results.

One has to wonder about the repeated and unending attacks on a credible chip tuner with lots of happy customers. What is it about ? BTW, Steve isn't the only guy to tune 911 chip. He is just the best known and longest standing.

And what is happening here?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/684237-misfire-track.html

I suspect that the recent increase in activity among Somali pirates may also be due to the Steve Wong chips.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...s/a_frusty.gif

It would be virtually impossible to program every possible condition into the chip. I wouldnt be so fast to dismiss the possibility that the chip contributed to this. too many unknown variables.

It could be the chip (and I am by no means an expert) - I wouldn't entirely rule it out just yet. It's just so clear that someone has an axe to grind - why would someone with such an agenda be a credible source of information? Reading that other thread, there are a few other more plausible and easy to rule out places to check first.

I've been researching chips for a while, and Loren's initial point (10 years ago) is reasonable and seemed to merit some consideration. At this point, however, the new dialog has done nothing to add new information beyond FUD (fear, uncertainy, doubt).

Anyway, I'm kicking myself for being dragged into this troll. With apologies, I will politely remove myself from the conversation. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/sad2.gif

Don't have any relation business or other wise with either implied party in this discussion, however, following some type of controlled method of observation/experimentation of the so called performance chips has little relevance here.
The OP made his own tests and his own modifications and his own observations of his own methods---- and said, 'this doesn't do anything- clearly BS'------
How is this a valid observation of another's product when another's product wasn't even used?

Just as predicted, typical response of a weasel. Looks like someone can't walk the talk is trying to crawl back into his hole. Absolute coward!

"It would be virtually impossible to program every possible condition into the chip. I wouldnt be so fast to dismiss the possibility that the chip contributed to this. too many unknown variables."

Exactly! And that's the whole Mickey Mouse thing about 'performance' tuning!

And it appears that an engine (3.2) was damaged/destroyed in Orange County in the last few
months during a 'tuning' session. Could this be related to too much 'pushed' timing
for that extra HP also? Actually, information from the session was that the engine was
advanced too much.

"Just as predicted, typical response of a weasel. Looks like someone can't walk the talk is trying to crawl back into his hole. Absolute coward!"

Speaks to one's character!

don't let him make you mad

It could be related to many, many things. This is a statement of the unknown.

Weaseling again? So now you're implying an engine was destroyed during one of my tuning sessions? Never happened so cut the BS while you're ahead.

So why don't you pony up and show us all what you claim? Or afraid of everyone seeing your true character?

At the end of the day. Both Loren and Steve are right. There are too many factors involved in how a car engine performs. There is more to performance than Fuel and Timing maps. Hell, Altitude, Humidity, Fuel Quality, Ambient Temps, Engine Temps, Load extremes, can impact this stuff. Can Loren say that a chip caused a engine to blow with 100% certainity. No. Can Steve say that his chips consider all factors 100% and that they would NEVER contribute to a engine blowing? No. Come on guys. This is ridiculous on both sides.

...But as someone who has read posts by both Lorenfb and Steve W over the last few years, it is WAY more rediculous on one side!

Steve W has posted quite a few dyno results, and has had lots of great, logical comments that make sense, on many different topics. He has been a valuable contributor to Pelican.

Lorenfb, on the other hand, has only one "point" to make over and over:
"All aftermarket chips are worthless. No one can improve on what the factory did".

My car gained 1.5 seconds per lap with nothing more than a chip change.
According to lorenfb, that was not possible.

One things for sure,
Discussions like this can only be good for the potential consumer, ie; the more threads that Loren starts about after market chips, the more people get curious, therefore, the more chips get tried, the more info we all have from individuals on their personal findings.
Going on past testamonials here so far, the deck is already stacked!

A...

I don't suppose anyone has ever damaged a stock motor at a DE event. This can only occur with a tuned chip. :rolleyes: ...truth is that the OP (misfire) does not know the condition of his engine yet or the cause of his problem.

Probably the most succinct and most factual statement made in 8 pages.

That's not possible. Loren uses some facts to support a conclusion that is not properly thought out. He is a troll....

Scott

let me rephrase -- Both raise some valid questions and make some valid points...

I'm thinking that this might get Loren banned.

Please let it be so..

Don't ban lorenfb!
 

Don't ban lorenfb! He has just as much right to say stupid things just like everyone else on this board and besides he is the only one with the guts to call out Steve Wong. Steve happily plays along with lorenfb and gets into it with him. The fact of the matter is this, lorenfb has yet to show anyone on this board that his claims are actually provable and let alone true. So don't ban him, he has right to talk out of his tail as well. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat.gifhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...eys/loki16.gif