2.0 or 2.2 liter engine

[siimlane]

Hi

How is it possible to visually identify which engine i have in my 1969 911? When i looked from Porsche 911 Red Book then it shows that my car should have a 2.0 liter but another clue that i found from 911 Restoration Manual says that last chassis number that had 2.0 is smaller than my chassin nr. Engine serial nr is 6195100

Siim

[ajwans]

The '9' in the third position denotes a 1969 engine, thus 2.0L

andy

[jluetjen]

Also check the engine serial number on the case, at the base of the fan-housing on the right. It's not uncommon for engines to be swapped. The engine number will give you a better idea of what the engine actually is, but even that isn't perfect since people often replace crank-shafts, or pistons and cylinders during rebuilds.

If you post the engine serial number we can check the books and tell you what it should be.

[siimlane]

Hi

My car's VIN is 119121314 and engine number from the fan housing is 6195100.

[djpateman]

I would expect the engine # for that VIN to be 6195800 =/- ; 5700 is possible but 5100 seems a very early. Engine type 901/16 begins at serial 6195001. A little behind the serial # you should see the type # and a build #; the build # for 5100 would likely be in the 16xxx to 17xxx range and 5700 would be in the 19xxx range. Please report back these numbers. Be aware the 1 and 7 are very similar; photos would help a lot.

[jluetjen]

The other option is that the engine may have been swapped out at some point over the last 42 years.

[siimlane]

I found two numbers :

Type is 901/16
Build number is 16687

[jluetjen]

901/16 is a '69, 2.0 911T motor for the US market.

[Grady Clay]

VIN: 119121314
Engine number: 6195100
Type: 901/16
Build number: 16687

Siim,

First a belated WELCOME to the Pelican Forum
You will find a lot of help here.


Your engine and chassis numbers seem consistent.
I recommend you get a Certificate of Authenticity (CoA) from Porsche A.G.


Your numbers decode as:

VIN: 119121314.
11 = Type 911 group.
9 = Model year 1969.
1 = Engine type 911T.
2 = Body version Karmann coupe.
1314 = Sequential number.

Engine number: 6195100.
6 = Engine designation, 6-cylinder unit.
1 = Engine type 911T (either 901/03 for RoW manual transmission, 901/13 for RoW Sportomatic, 901/16 manual transmission USA version or 901/19 Sportomatic transmission USA version.)
5100 = Sequential number.
(The reason your engine sequential number exceeds the VIN is that the same engines were installed in Targas and Porsche (Reuter) coupe chassis.)

According to Pelican djpatemans’ fine records, your build number may fall correctly.
However, you must confirm with images and your careful reading of the numbers.
Your transmission numbers and the casting dates of both engine and transmission will help.


Again, WELCOME to Pelican.
Pictures please.

Best,
Grady

[siimlane]

Here are some shots, but where is transmission number located at?




Number starts with 901

[Grady Clay]

The transmission numbers are stamped in the bottom rib.
Here is an example:



This is probably the type transmission you have.

Best,
Grady

[djpateman]

Based on all the numbers I would suspect the engine came out of an earlier car. It could have stayed around a long time, so only a COA would say for sure.

[siimlane]

I took a photo of the transmission type and serial numbers. According to Patrick Paternie's Porsche 911 Red Book my car engine numbers should be in 6195001-6197292 range for 901/16 type of engine. But for transmission it says that type 901/12 was fitted to US 911T model for that year.

As you can see from the pictures car is fitted with 901/07 gearbox that was a standard for 1970 model 911T. Also one other fact that supports the 2.2 version is that Morgan/Porter Haynes Restoration Manual refers 119100331 as the last B-spec car with 2.0 engine.

[Grady Clay]

7190561

7 = Transmission for 6-cylinder unit.
1 = Transmission type, 5-speed, standard ratio (consistent with 901/07).
9 = Model year 1969.
0561 = Sequential number.


7190561 type 901/07 is an early 1969 transmission, the 561st one built.
Probably built normally before your car.
(All ’70-71 are type 911.)
Yours is an ‘early’ aluminum die (sand) casting 5-speed 901/07 (7190001 to 7192529).
(There is a ‘late’ ’69 series that are pressure (‘investment’) cast magnesium. Type 901/13 and other.)

Considering the engine range for your 911 is 61905001 to 6197292, your 6190100 (100th built) is close to the transmission (561th built) with the others going to 911E, 911S and Reuter-built 911s.
Keep in mind that this transmission was used with all 911 models.
While your Karmann-built VIN is later (1314th built) it may be due to how components built by Porsche made their way to Karmann.
This is what we are trying to figure out with Dave’s database.



An interesting aside is the spring on the clutch arm.
This was used to keep the early (’64-’67) clutch release (TO) bearing off the pressure plate.
The last production Porsche used this was 1967, possibly some early ‘68.
With the ’68 model (and certainly all ’69), there was a later TO bearing and no spring.
These TO bearings were ‘constant contact’ with the spring at the pedal assembly.
If the spring is original, it will tell us something.

Do you intend to go inside the transmission?
The dates on the gear-pairs are important.

The aluminum oil pipe is clearly ’68-’69 and won’t fit a ’70-’71 clutch installation.

This is starting to appear numbers matching.
A CoA will (or should) tell.

Best,
Grady

[siimlane]

As I'm from Estonia (very small country next to Russia and Finland) getting CoA is a bit difficult. PCA sends these only to US addresses but i'll try to figure something out to get it and see if the car is truly matching numbers car.

My plans with the car is to do a total nut and bolt restoration that includes checking and repairing transmission and engine as well. At the moment engine turns by hand but it's not in the running condition.

[djpateman]

I suspect that the engine and transmission were paired at the factory, but were both originally in an earlier car.

[siimlane]

Hi

I got CoA from Porsche and indeed djpateman you we're right - the original motor in the car should be 6195775 and 7193497. So engine and gearbox are a bit older but still from 69 car with 5 speed transmission.

Siim

[Grady Clay]

Siim,

Congratulations on getting your CoA. That resolves those issues.
Are there any clues where (in USA) the car was delivered?

How is the restoration going?
Pictures from Estonia please.

Perhaps when finished, you can take it on a tour of the US. I’ll help organize.

Best,
Grady

[siimlane]

Hi

Restoration is a bit on the slow side as i'm the only one building it and my spare time is very limited. I have a photo diary in DDK website

[Grady Clay]

WOW!
DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker • View topic - Porsche 911T 1969 restoration
Good for you.

It appears that you are well on your way to a fine restoration.

As a long-time DDK member (unfortunately rarely contributing), you have lots of help there.
Feel free to ask for help from your American (Pelican) brethren.
I (and Pelican Parts) can help you ship parts from here.

Best,
Grady