Think I can get my 2.0 up to 200hp?
 

I'm contemplating a 3.2 swap (see my other thread: Help me design optimal engine setup for my hotrod), but would also like to weigh the option of rebuilding my current '69 2.0 911E engine in keeping with time period correctness...

So what kind of power do you think I could get out of it? I was thinking about switching my zeniths to PMO's, putting in higher compression cylinders (maybe to the point of twin plugging (although I am clueless about the need for that in a 2.0), switching my heat exchangers for headers, new cam, blah blah blah...

How would you go about this? Suggestions? Expertise? Keep my 2.0, or switch to 3.0, 3.2? That 4 cyl POLO engine gets ~200hp (see POLO powered 4 cylinder 911 motor in a 912) why not my 6 cyl? Only need it for street use really...

Obviously I would have to beef up my 901 gearbox a bit too...

This is easy. How much money do you want to spend?

If you put a 3.2 engine in at least you will already be at the 200 hp mark.
Not sure how hard it is to get these kind of figures from a 2.0 but I would imagine it would be less streetable.
And the money saved will be well spent on the mods to fit the 3.2 which has the added benefit of being newer technology. My 2 cents.

I wouldn't twin plug this one because even a 2.2 conversion wouldn't get above 9.5:1 compression.

As for budget. ~10k.

I could sell the 2.0 as use the money for a 3.2 to upgrade, or just upgrade the 2.0 to a 2.2. Decisions...

I also have a friend looking to get rid of his 2.4, so that's an option...

Sure, about $40,000 will do it. $10k will get you a stock rebuild if everything is in pretty good shape.

2,0 heads don't flow well and detonate, biggest budget item is in the heads.
Then case modifications
Then at least 10,3 to 1 pistons. With 72cc head volume there will be a very big dome on the pistons, hence the need for twin plugs.
Induction-- PMO at minimum but you may want to consider EFI-- $3500 to $6500
Crank mods and rods necessary to spin to 7500 RPM
Big cams, like 906
That's about the size of it.

Or you could buy a used 3,2. . . :)

Haha. That 3.2 is looking better and better.

Acording to Porsche 911 SC (1979-1983)

The 80-83 3.0L SC's are at 204hp stock and if you remove all the stock smog stuff and put an early (or larger) exhaust you can get a few more!

PS: 901 is good up to about 300hp!!!

John is pretty close,....:)

We can do 200BHP with a 2.0, however its damned expensive and will require refurbishment every 100-150 hours, or so. Further, its powerband is somewhat narrow and not only require a good close-ration gearset, but its not fun below 6K RPM.

For vintage racing, these sorts of thing are SOP, however its not a great choice for any street use.

It makes perfect sense. I think it was Dr. Porsche himself who said that if he had known that the engineers could stretch the displacement all the way to 3,6 liters, he would have told them to make the engine smaller.

Same form factor, almost the same weight. Of course you must contend with oil cooling.

Here's a thread I did a long time ago when I was at the precise point you are at in the thought process.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/221927-suggestions-warmed-over-2-0-901-05-a.html

A few years later I have a great motor for my perfectly stock car.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1345170377.jpg

Thanks for that thread. I'm pouring over it.

[QUOTE=procan;7053054]I'm contemplating a 3.2 swap QUOTE]

I was in a similar spot as you for the last few years...do I rebuild my 2.4, or do I swap in something bigger? My car was born a '72 T. When I got it in '98, I figured I'd boost power output when it was time for a rebuild. Problem was (if you can really call it a problem), that time never came. Eventually, in a search for more top-end, I replaced the T cams with E cams and swapped the MFI for Webers (cheaper than building the MFI to E spec). This was a nice little boost. But eventually, I wanted more.

So after many years of thinking and dreaming, I finally pulled the trigger on a '84 3.2 a couple weeks ago. I sold the 2.4 & MFI, and the net cost is not bad at all. Assuming you aren't tied to your small displacement motor for nostalgic (or speculative) reasons, I think it's hard to beat the potential bang for your buck of a good swap. Of course you run the risk that any engine you buy may have issues. But you can minimize this to some extent with a little legwork. Even if it does, the cost of a basic rebuild of a 2.0 is pretty much the same as 3.2. At least when you're done with the 3.2, you have a 3.2 not a 2.0 (bet you couldn't figure that out ;)).

Now, hopfully I'll still feel this way after I get it all installed...I also bought the '84 tranny with a LSD :D

Roger

That's a Euro SC output, 9.8:1 CR, big port heads, and Euro FD.
US SC is 180 HP, 78-83.

As for the 901, i've read 1st gear will explode with much over 200HP but no experience with it.. I would go with a 915 for a later motor.

I would rebuild the engine and buy a period correct MFI

you will end with a correct car

:-)

...but a slower car ;)

I own a 69E ... after 4000rpm it is heaven ;-)

You can get 200 HP from 2.0L, but only at high RPM. Power will fall off quickly, little power and even less torque where you need it. A 3.0 or 3.2 will have low end torque that is much more useful with no added weight as noted above.

A 2.0S is a really fun engine though...

I understand completely. I have been driving a 2.4 E cammed motor for years, and it is great from 4K to just past 6K...especially the sound with M&K race mufflers (there isn't much "muffling" here). But I am really looking forward to 3.2L of "grunt".

I guess I have to decide exactly what I want. I like the idea of more period correct, but I ultimately want something fast with lots of low end, although that can get me in trouble very quickly...

2.7 rs engine could be a choice

Giovanni86, I do have a friend looking to get rid of his 2.4, which I could bump up to a 2.7.. This is also an option, but again, there is no substitute for displacement...

I would not use a 3,2 because when you look at your engine you will like to see old stuff:

compare this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3351/...9ccabd0131.jpg

to this

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/med..._3.2_liter.jpg

A 930/10 3.0 (81-83 euro motor) would fit the bill perfectly. 204hp with stock exhaust. Put on SSI's and you're around 220hp. Minimal electronics to deal with (no O2 sensor or ECU) so it woudl be an easy swap. The 901 could be an issue though. The SC motors tend to have more low end grunt, while the 3.2 motors don't come alive until 4000+ rpm. Although either motor would be a huge boost in an early chasis so I doubt you'd notice a difference.

I have to say if you want "old feel" I'd strongly consider a 2.7. It'll look the part, rev well and easily get 200hp with cook book formulas from several good builders.

If you want to make easy 200hp for possibly less money, then why not pick up a 3.0 at a cheaper entry point especially with Euro P&C's or some JE's in there to get it nearer 10:1 under PMO's. It won't be "accurate" but will mostly look and sound the part with 50% more cc's than that 2.0 for better street manners and durability. Selling a good 2.0 will get you a ways into a 3.0. 3.2 EFI will be quicker likely in street trim, but won't sound or rev the same. Certainly as mentioned above, doesn't look as good.

Not sayin a 3.2 isn't great, but if your weighing options of retro vs displacement why not shoot in middle and get a little of both?

No matter the engine size I am still planning on PMO carbs, so I will get the retro look either way. What do you think I could get for my 2.0 911E w/ zeniths and Carrera chain tensioners?

Need more info on the 2.0. If an original E, it could help re establish some value to an otherwise restored 911E with say a T or L engine. To that individual it could have real value......considering you can get a 3.0 for $4k, might get in the even territory I would think if in 'like' condition and complete with reasonably sound numbers.

Yep, this is what you'd be seeing of my 3.2 as I fly by!

I'm just having fun. I love the smaller displacement motors with carbs & MFI. But after 14 years of that, I'm ready for a change. There's no wrong answer here. Do what makes you happy!

Roger

It is an original '69 E motor, although the MFI has been replaced with Zenith 40 Tins and upgraded Carerra chain tensioners, though with those upgrades it makes me wonder what else may have been upgraded on the inside...

Here is a point of reference for you. I listed my 2.4T motor on Pelican a couple weeks ago. It has E cams, Webers, Carrera tensioners, etc. I priced it "aggressively" at $2800. It was like throwing chum into a shark tank!

Roger

A fellow local PCA member is giving me a deal on a 2.4 that I can't pass up. I'm going with the 2.4 with the possibility of bumping it up to a 2.7 complete with PMO carbs and headers. The 2.4/2.7 is more of a period engine, and I think the low end of the 3.2 is enough to get me in trouble.

Why yes you can
 

And you don't have to break the bank. It's just about the right parts. This uses stock port, small valve heads (no need for the spendy 69S).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/566662-2-0-engine-excellent-performance.html

Question is would you rather be having a screaming ball at 55 or 105. One of the things I really liked about my RZ350. It was a blast at 65. Much easier on the license!

t

3.2's can look retro...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1351763958.jpg

In my '69 you can't tell it's not a 2ltr, until you start it :)

So I pulled the trigger on a 2.4T. The deal was too good to pass up. The plan is a variation of the 2.4 with 2.2S pistons.

The top end came mostly disassembled, and without fuel injection. It was an MFI motor, so I bought some cheap Zeniths, a couple carb rebuild kits, and some 2.2T heads so I don't have to deal with plugging the hole in the 2.4 MFI heads. For my Zeniths I am looking at buying main jets from this guy once I get my hands on some 34mm venturies and calculate the size of main jets I need (160ish?). Oh, and I bought solex cams.

I am planning on buying some custom JE pistons. I am now debating whether to order 9.5:1 pistons and stick with single plug, or jump the compression to 9.8:1 or ~10.2:1 and twin plug. I need to send my heads off to get built anyways, why not get them ported, then drilled and tapped for twin sparks at the same time? I have an MSD unit, and heard you can run twin plugs off of one MSD.

What do you guys think?


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1365648384.jpg

Old bits
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1365648442.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1365648498.jpg

New bits

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1365648544.jpg

tl;dr
Have:
- 2.4T core
- Zeniths
- Solex cams

Need:
- high compression pistons
- 34mm venturis
- Larger main jets (160ish?)

Question:
- Twin plug while i'm in there?

"and some 2.2T heads so I don't have to deal with plugging the hole in the 2.4 MFI heads"

They sell little plugs that are made for this. I used them when I switched to Webers on my 2.4T MFI. I don't recall if 2.2s and 2.4s used the same valve and port sizes. If the 2.2s are smaller, then I would definitely get a set of the plugs and use the 2.4s. Otherwise, it probably comes down to condition of the heads.

Enjoy!

Roger

2.4T ports I remember being smaller than 2.2T ports for some reason , 2.2T and E ports are same size. I'm pretty sure port sizes are the only thing that changed with 2.2-2.7, but I'll have to check my engine rebuilding book when I get home. My 2.4 heads are newly re-built, but I think I want to port the heads to S size, (and contemplating twin plug), so I bought core 2.2 heads instead of messing about with the newly rebuilt 2.4 heads. If anyone wants brand new rebuild 2.4T heads, I'll sell them to you.

With 85mm pistons and increased compression to 9.5:1, or 10ish:1, I would like to be on the safe side and not have to worry all the time about fuel quality. Hence twin plug. (Plus it looks cool!)

My dream is 85mm JE pistons, 10ish:1 compression, twin plug, solex cams, S spec heads, and 34mm venturies with my zeniths. I may have to settle with 9.5:1 compression and single plug, but I really want to twin plug. My piston choice depends on whether I twin plug or not.

Anyone have experience twin plugging with 1 MSD?

I think you're right on the ports. If memory serves me correct, when I measured the ports on my engine, they were only 29mm. This was actually smaller than the figures given in some reference material.

I had similar aspirations for my 2.4 motor, S cams, S ports, JE 85mm 9.5 (I was planning to simply bore the iron cylinders). I think that should comfortably give you the 200 hp you were looking for.

I assume you are rebuilding this yourself? Either way, get ready for a whole lot of "while your in there" expenditures!

Roger

Nice to see this thread come back.

Twin plugging is neat, but add several thousand to the price of the build. Is it worth it to you for 20-25 more HP?

Does it really provide that much additional power? If you had two identical 2.4s, one with 9.5:1 single plug and the other with 10.5:1 twin plug, would it be 20-25? How high of a CR can you run? I guess you wind up with fuel problems if you go too high (or carrying a case of octane booster in the trunk). Does twin plugging improve response at lower RPMS as well?

Roger

This...

The problem with Porsche ownership.

$40k for 200hp...baawwahahahahaaaaaa

3.2SmileWavy

Uh oh, you're stirring the hornets nest again!

(my net cost for 215 hp will be around $3K...3.2 :D)