Propane Garage Heater and roof truss question?

[Geneman]

Hello Colleagues.. Must rip out the top shelf /storage area of my garage to accomodate the new lift.. its a shelf with joists going across..fire up the sawzall ........and its cold here in philly..any thoughts on those turbine/jet engine shaped prop.heaters? i used them a long time ago . any comments recommendations? i assume one must leave a vent or something open (window, cracked door) correct?

thanks frank

btw does anyone with building skills think that i should tie the roof beams together with trusses (see blue lines in photo) before removing this shelf? i cannot tell if the existing joists which hold the shelf up are serving as the trusses or not.. do you really need theses for the structure?

thanks frank

[Two Rivers]

Yes tie the trusses together. I use a heat hog kerosene heater. Quite and heats well. I just leave the door cracked a little for ventilation.

Also you might want to tie the end gables to the top of the roof to stabilize.

I try ed a propane heater but it left moisture on everything.

[pksystems]

It's going to take one of those propane heaters a long time to heat that area.

The outer roof has no insulation, and it's going to heat the upper roof section first (heat rises) before you have any noticable warmth in the work area.

Without having an inner, insulated roof, you're probably better off with an electric radiant heater, pointed where ever you are working. It will be cold everywhere else. If you park a car too close to it, they can bubble the paint.

As for the joists..... I have them running every ~18-24" with tri-angulated truss'. How do you plan to mount your garage door opener if you move the joists up?

[mreid]

I can't tell if you have any collar ties connecting the rafters, but I would install a few. One every four rafters down about four feet from the peak would be safe. As for the shelf. It looks to be hung from the rafters and is providing little structural bracing. I would still add the ties prior to removing the shelf.

I don't like any portable, gas fired heater in the garage as the risk for CO poisoning is high even with the door or window cracked. I would rather see you get a small permanent heater that uses a heat exchanger.

Where are you in the Philly area?

[DCinVA]

I have used my turbine/jet engine kerosene heater my garage for years, and it works great. You do need to crack a window or door to provide ventalation. I usually turn on my heater a couple hours before I start working to warm up the air, the tools, and the car. Some insulation would help things toasty as well.

Another trick is to run your errands in the morning, then park the car in the garage. Nothing like a hot engine to provide a little extra heat.

Have fun, and stay warm.

[michael lang]

I agree, there isn't anything wrong with a kerosene heater as long as caution is used. We've been lucky here in D.C. the last several years but I suspect I will be buying one for this year's project as I'm thinking we're due and this is the year that Mother Nature will be cashing in. Crawling around on a cold garage floor absolutely sucks!

[wayner]

If you are looking for permanent heat rather than just heat for this job, then heat the cement slab rather than the air.

The solution is a bit more expensive (pouring a new slab with heating tubes) but the benefit is that unlike heated air, the slab won't rise

[kodioneill]

I bought a Goodman propane furnace put it in the corner no ducts or anything and it heats my entire 4000 sq foot space. You need to insulate for sure.

[Deadeye]

Removing that shelf and the members that connect your outside walls will create a potential for big problems if you have a heavy snow fall. The outside walls will bow out and the ridge will sag. You need either a structural ridge or collar ties (horizontal ties from rafter to rafter as low as you can install them. I would also recommend a minimum of every rafter as they are spaced pretty far apart.

Some insulation installed in the new collar ties and in the rest of the roof/ wall cavities would also make a huge difference in the amount of fuel needed to make it comfortable in there.

[frosty2]

Do a look up on a modine hot dawg garage heater they do a good job and they vent outside. I don't have a picture but I just hung one in my son's garage this week.

[theclaw]

I used a torpedo heater in a detached uninsulated garage for years. My wife complained because I smelled like kerosene after coming into the house. I now have an insulated attached garage so the first thing I did when I moved in was to extend a gas line and install a HotDawg heater that frosty mentioned. It's all what kind of investment (time and money) you want to make at this time. If you are installing a lift, you might want to consider beefing up the structure around it now too.

[HawgRyder]

I like the old style gas heaters that hung from the ceiling in garages....forced air....natural gas...chimney to carry fumes out..and lots of insulation to make it all economical.
Also...don't forget to insulate the walls too.
Bob

[Porchcar guy]

Old builder here .....I would tie of every other rafter with a cross tie as low as you can go horizontally. This should be done all the way thru the garage !!!! I would also try to fit the highest R value kraft covered insulation and cover that with plastic or sheetrock if you feel industrious.:=) This keeps your hot air rising inside the space and not gone thru the roof. I hate the sound of the jet engine type heaters and have installed a 4' long electric basebaord type and heats my 22'x20'x8' garage just fine. Good luck and have some winter fun with your new lift !

[Walt Fricke]

Porchcar - one single 4' electric baseboard does the job? Wow, maybe I'll drop a natural gas heater from my long range plans. Does that take 220V?

My garage is 20 x 24W, with a flat roof rising from about 8' to about 9', so the volume is pretty much like yours. Only one side insulated, though I can get industrious and change that. Though I think Albuquerque is a bit warmer on average than Boulder CO?

Perhaps you and I are not destined to have lifts, though, with our 8' ceilings. What I do have is a steel beam lengthwise between the two garage doors, which turns out to be ideal for a trolly and chain hoist for moving motors from the rear of a car to the stand on a workbench, and back again.

But maybe Frank has flying butresses on the outside of his garage to take the sideways loads? Or could install them, or props leading diagonally to the ground on each side, like tent ropes but designed for compression loads instead of tension? Interesting that this garage was constructed with cross beams only on the garage door side. Maybe the rest (the part already without those beams) is already set into the house structure proper, and that takes the snow load vector there?

[nicfranc]

As a Licensed Architect I have come across people removing ceiling joists often and if
you do not reengineer the roof structure the roof loads and their component forces will push out on the opposing walls and the ridge will sag.

Collar ties are usually to high to resist the outward thrust.
Collar ties are actually used to resist the roof rafters from bowing inward and downward.

A structural ridge helps to prevent the outward thrust or you can create trusses by adding chords.

There are a few other solutions but the answer is no do not remove or raise the members keeping the structure together without building another system to resist the forces of gravity.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Walt Fricke

Does that take 220V?

The electric baseboard heater is either 220 or 110. 220 is way more economical. Lived in Anchorage for five years in the 1980's - Still wet behind the ears and rented a house with nothing but 110V baseboard electric. Nasty $$$$$.

Hang down vented gas heater (e.g., Reznor) would only need 110.

Last weekend I rented an insulation blower from Lowes and blew cellulose insulation into the wall cavities in a 10 foot high garage. 3 bay - roughly 30" wide and 22"-ish deep. I peeled back the vinyl siding rather than boring the 4" holes in the drywall. Net cost not counting labor was maybe $125. If it was a free standing building (vs being mated to the insulated house sides in sections) would have been $250 absolute max. Blower works great and I occasionally heard drywall nails "pop" from the insulation being packed in so tight. Sweet.

[Walt Fricke]

Sounds like Frank needs a structural ridge. If I am close to guessing what is involved, a structural ridge puts most of the down loads onto its ends. Since these are closed (normally) triangles, they don't put outward forces on their supports. As long as these supports are adequate, all is well?

Otherwise, maybe he'd have to design something which crossed at the higher level he needs, but just beyond where the lift would put his car, angled down to tie in at the top of the wall. And that bend joint would need to be strongly gusseted. Nic would know. But the roof ridge beam sounds more practical? Doesn't sound like a homeowner install job, though.

[nicfranc]

You can solve the problem without a structural ridge.
The easiest solution would be to move the members up to the height you need at each rafter. If you do every other rafter you need to beef up the members and the connections.
You have to maintain continuity across the structure.

You could truss the members with forty five degree members.
Triangulation is always your friend in structures. (thank you Bucky Fuller)
Connections need to be gusseted not just toe nailed.

I would also add a nice hearty cross beam for heavy lifting.

There are a number of solutions and they all can be done in a weekend with a few helpers and of course Beer.

[Geneman]

OMG WHAT DAY A BEAST OF A PROJECT .. RAT MOUSE **** EVERYWHERE ON TOP OF THAT SHELF IN GARAGE . GOT KID NEXT DOOR TO HELP ME INSTALL 2X10 X10 PT COLLAR TIES CARRIAGE BOLTED AS LOW AS POSSIBLE … THEN I JUST USED SAWSALL FROM TOP GOING JOIST TO JOIST BACK TOWARDS DOOR. EACH SECTION JUST DROPPED OUT WITH A BANG!! BTW REMOVED ALL ELECTRIC AND SUPPORTED DOOR RUNNERS WITH A TOTALLY GHETTO 2X4 SECTION NAILED TO WINDOW FRAME..

I DID LEARN THAT IT IS A BAD THING IF YOU ARE STANDING ON THE FINAL PLATFORM BETWEEN THE 2 JOISTS NEAR THE DOOR AND THE LADDER IS AT THE OTHER END OF THE FRIGGIN GARAGE WHERE YOU STARTED WTF WHO THINKS OF THIS ****?? MANAGAED TO SCREAM LOUD ENOUGH THE NEIGHBOR TO COME BY!! HEHEHE!! …

HOPEFULLY GET LIFT POSTS UP TOMORROW ….. THE CEMENT GUYS LEFT ME A KING HELL POWER DRILL TO USE…WOOHOO!

FOUND AN OLD SPRAYER ON TOP OF SHELF MADE IN 1908!!

ALSO FOUND MY OLD 88 STOCK FRONT VALENCE AND THE RUF BOX MY OTHER ONE CAME IN TOTALLY RATS NEST IN THE BOX

ANYONE NEED A GP WHITE 88 NARROW BODY FRONT VALENCE WITH GOOD RUBBER? HAVE ALL THE MTG HARDWARE AND THE FOGLIGHTS PLUS MOUNTING HDWE. ONE LENSE HAS A CRAK BUT OTHERWISE ITS ALL GOOD

THANKS VERY MUCH TI EVERYONE THAT CHIMED IN ON THIS THREAD.. THE HEATER WORKED WELL BUT IT IS TEMPORARY SOLUTION..

THANKS TO THE STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS... ALSO.. I WENT ON THE SAFE SIDE AND DID THE COLLAR TIES. I FORGT TO MENTION THE GARAGE WALLS ARE 2 FEET HICK OLD SCHOOL (CIRCA 1917) RED, VERY HARD HUGE BLOCKS WITH GOBS OF STUCKO. THEY ARE NOT BOWING AT ALL..HOPEFULLY THE TIES INHIBIT ROOF SAG.

NOW TO GET THE HOLES DRILLED FOR THE LIFT IN NEW 4000PSI CONCRETE

CHEERS FRANK

[nicfranc]

Nice Job.