Cookie cutters vs. Fuchs

[Paco Anton]

My 83 SC Targa came with 15" black cookie cutters with 195/65 front and 215/60 back.



So, what do you think? After reading this board it seems that they are less desirable than Fuchs. Could sombody explain the differences.

Another question. Could they be original with the car back in '83 or they must be a replacement by the PO? Could black not be the original color?

Any input appreciated

Thanks

[zuerchers]

i was looking through my porsche red book and it looks like the 6Jx15 and 7Jx15 with 185/70 and 215/60 cookie cutters were standard for 78-83. it lists an optional 15" forged alloy wheel that carried a 205 up front and 225 in the rear. i believe this optional wheel is the fuch and the option code was M395. look under you trunk hood and locate the sticker that has all the options listed. nice looking car!

[89911]

Without going into a ton of details, the Fuchs are a better, stronger, lighter wheel then the cast wheels which yours are. A forged wheel is 1/2 the weight and about 3 times the strength of a similar cast wheel. If it was me, you could pick up a set of 16" Fuchs, 6 and 7" width for a good price, $500 tops. It would open many more tire options also.

[RSupdate]

In addition to the good points 89911 made there is a potential increase in any future resale value should you put the Fuch's on

btw, nice SC !!

[kumma]

Dont dismiss the cookies so quickly, i've seen people use them as race wheels so they cant be as bad as many people say they are. I think you might be suprised if you weighed a cookie cutter and a fuch wheel of the same size, i would guess they are pretty much the same weight, no way they weight twice as much.

[Jim T]

Those wheels very likely came stock on your car.

They are in the stock configuration (i.e. with black centers).

Based on your picture, I'd say that is exactly what the car looked like when it was new in 1983.

Although the Fuchs wheels were technically optional, almost all SCs shipped to the US came with Fuchs. So cookie cutters on an SC is not that common in the US.

In other parts of the world, the cookie cutters are far more common on SCs.

The cookie cutters aren't a bad wheel, its just that the Fuchs are better, being 16 instead of 15 inches, being forged instead of cast, and being better looking (in most people's eyes).

[Randy W]

Craig's right, 7x15 cookie cutters weigh essentially the same as 7x15 Fuchs. The cast wheel is not as strong as the Fuchs, but stronger than most other cast wheels on the road - it was made by ATE and had to pass much stronger German industry tests (TUV).

[Chuck Moreland]

True enough about the weight. I have a few sets of Fuchs. I use Cookies as race wheels and they weigh about 1 pound more than similar sized Fuchs.

[barlowdo]

Why are we comparing 15" cookie cutters to 16" Fuchs ? Last I knew Fuchs also came in 15 inch.

I even owned a 69 911T that came with 14 inch Fuchs but probably not from the factory. And they were significantly lighter than any 15 inch Fuch or Cookie Cutter I have picked up.

I wish some one would do a weight comparison between a 15 inch factory Fuch and a 15 inch Cookie Cutter and make sure they are the same width when they do it. I would be curious what the weight difference is.

Another slight advantage of a 15 inch Cookie Cutter that I have noticed is that you can see your nicely painted brake caliper more easily.

I find it interesting that racers use cookie cutters as I have read also that the forged Fuchs are stronger also. Maybe it is a money thing.

One thing I got into years ago with a tire store was when I attempted to purchase low profile tires for my wheels. The tire store was concerned that the side wall of a low profile tire will not absorb the shock of a pot hole as well as a higher profile tire and consequently transfer the shock to the wheel. In this situation a forged wheel would be an advantage.

But with todays large diameter wheels and better suspensions I don't know if wheel strength is as much an issue.

A tall tire can sure go thru a pot hole easier than a small diameter tire.

Has anybody heard if newer wheels are failing ? I don't know of anybody recently that has complained about a broken wheel.

How are the latest Porsche wheels formed ? Are they still forged ?

Not an expert- Don

[89911]

Originally posted by kumma
Dont dismiss the cookies so quickly, i've seen people use them as race wheels so they cant be as bad as many people say they are. I think you might be suprised if you weighed a cookie cutter and a fuch wheel of the same size, i would guess they are pretty much the same weight, no way they weight twice as much.

I would venture to guess you see a lot of cookie cutter wheels on the track for the following reasons: there cheap, many have upgraded to fuchs and don't have any further use for them, and they would rather keep the (opinion) better looking Fuchs for every day use. The ratios of strength and weight is a direct quote from a good source, but a generalization. The exact ratio for Fuchs may be different. If everyone loves these wheels, how come I see them on about 5% of the 911's. And of the 5%, the owners are actively looking for Fuchs.

I think the cookie cutters are ATS wheels not ATE. Never mind it's not that important anyway. It's correct that the 15 inch cookie cutters are actually quite light. I just lifted one today and it almost felt the same weight as a Fuchs.

For looks and better tire options go for a set of 16 inch Fuchs. A friend of mine just fitted 7 & 8x16 with 205/55 & 225/50 on his 911 and it looks great.

Only downside with the Fuchs; they are expensive, even used!

[zuerchers]

all of my reading materials dont show a 16" fuch becoming available as an option until 1984. up to that point it looks like you could only get a 15" fuch.

[Jim T]

Originally posted by zuerchers
all of my reading materials dont show a 16" fuch becoming available as an option until 1984. up to that point it looks like you could only get a 15" fuch.

Nope, that is wrong.

16 inch Fuchs were available, for example, as optional equipment on the 1978 911SC. Says so right on the sticker that came on the car!

Which is also why just about every SC you see in the US that has not been modified has 16 by 6 and 7 inch Fuchs.

[zuerchers]

i wish the red book were more detailed. thats why i bought the stupid thing. it only lists a 15" as an option. is it possible that the 16" were U.S. dealer installed options?
when you wrote " the sticker on my car" were refering to the sticker under the hood or the sales sticker on the window? are you the original owner? i wish i was the original owner. with the prices of these cars now i dont think that will ever happen.

[Jim T]

Originally posted by zuerchers
i wish the red book were more detailed. thats why i bought the stupid thing. it only lists a 15" as an option. is it possible that the 16" were U.S. dealer installed options?
when you wrote " the sticker on my car" were refering to the sticker under the hood or the sales sticker on the window? are you the original owner? i wish i was the original owner. with the prices of these cars now i dont think that will ever happen.

Nope, 16 incher were a factory installed option. Just about every single SC shipped to the US came off the boat with 'em. 16 by 6 and 7.

The 16 inch wheels and tires are described on the gold foil sticker in the SC engine compartment - gives the size (205/55 16 and 225/50 16) and the tire pressure spec.

[jluetjen]

Ok Folks! I have weighed a 15x6 inch "Cookie" and a 15x6 inch Fuchs --- and as far as my digital bathroom scale is concerned, they weigh the same. But since they are both made of aluminum and have roughly the same dimensions, this is what I would expect. There is no appreciable weight difference between them.

The Fuchs are forged while the ATS's are cast. As a racer, this means that to me if I hit the ATS hard enough, it will break. If I hit the Fuchs with the same force - it will most likely bend. Either way the tire will be out of air and I'll be out of the race. As a result of the Fuchs manufacturing process, it was most likely manufactured slightly more accurately, but both wheels have passed Porsche's tough requirements as well as the very tough TUV process. The bottom line is that by an overwhelming margin - both wheels are good enough.

There are a lot more sizes of Fuchs in the world, and the design does say "911" to the world. I suspect this is why there are so many more of them. As a racer would I used ATS's? Since the rules that my car will be competing under have a maximum wheel size of 15x7, which is a cookie size, and they are cheaper then Fuchs - sure I'll use them.

BTW - I believe that the ATS's with the black centers were 944 wheels while the ATS's with the aluminum colored centers were 911 wheels. The were the same size, just painted differently.