Euro H4 vs HID

[gregwils]

I currently have a set of Hella H4's 55/60 with sugar scoops on my car. The lighting is ...hmmm....ok, but I just don't care for the uncircumcised look (just sayin) of the U.S. headlight set-up. So, I am kicking around two options. One would be to install HID's by modifying an old set of euro lights that I already own. Option two, would be to buy a new set of Euro H4's.

I don't drive my Porsche much at night, but love the HIDs on my daily driver. The older I get - 54 - the more I appreciate modern HID headlights, I'm just a little mixed on the HID eyeball look and not anxious about cutting out the back of my headlight buckets. My car is otherwise completely stock.

jimtweet's thread is one of the better ones and current. I was just wondering if anyone else is sitting on the fence, has a project planned or is already headed down this path. I'd love to hear other thoughts.

[javadog]

I'd suggest the Euro H4 lights. Retrofit HID kits aren't a good idea, if you ask a lighting engineer. Lot's of people do them but they generally don't do much "engineering", it's more "can I make it fit"?

JR

[lv600]

Greg...

Have you seen this thread?

Anybody want to try a projector headlight kit for 911?

I stumbled across this thread today, and it might be what you are looking for.

I am also on the fence about the HID, and I think I like the looks of the H4 conversion without the sugar scoops, a la Singer vehicles. YMMV.

I like the look of Kevin's (quaz) conversion.

HID for less than $400 Part 2

Since I have sugar scoops also, it'll take some extra $$ to get in chrome H4 trim rings, etc., but I do love the look.

Hope this helps.

[gregwils]

Originally Posted by javadog

I'd suggest the Euro H4 lights. Retrofit HID kits aren't a good idea, if you ask a lighting engineer. Lot's of people do them but they generally don't do much "engineering", it's more "can I make it fit"?

JR

JR - Do you mean they aren't a good idea because they aren't engineered for the car? Interesting, the only evidence I have seen is one of the threads included a picture of the light pattern on a closed garage door. It looked pretty strong, but agree that throwing the light down the road may have a very different result.

Jon - No, I had not seen the first thread, thanks.

[javadog]

Long story short, the HID lights put the source of the light in a different location and orientation to the lens, as compared to a standard halogen bulb. This changes the light distribution when it passes through the flutes on the lenses, which is why you often see cars with these light coming from a mile away. I have several cars with HID lights but they have clear lenses (with no dispersion pattern cast into them) and they use a variety of shields to prevent light from going where it shouldn't, like into the eyes of oncoming drivers.

Some of the lighting vendors have a more detailed description of all of this. The guy I ususally buy my lights from is Daniel Stern and he can tell you all about it.

If you really want good lights in a 911, find and install a pair of Bosch H1 lights, then add relays and aim them properly. Not cheap, but you'll be impressed with the result.

JR

[gregwils]

Ok, thanks. I was going to go with clear glass from an VW, but the shield would be a different story. I am only so-so when it comes to modifying stuff, and I know the Euro H4's work so may end up going that direction.

[wwest]

I've been buying, Ebay, 2-position HID bulbs for myself and friends for anumber of years now.

These bulbs have an electric solenoid in the base that move the arc from the EXACTING correct location/position, high or low beam, as the two filaments are in a standard automotive incandescent bulb.

Once bi-xenon projectors become common, and reasonably priced, on Ebay I satrted buying the clear headlights (ex:'95 LS400, '78 Targa, '88 Carrera) and converting them to projector HID.

Basically no engineering need be done by the aftermarket, just follow the lead, copy, those that have gobe before.

Once you've had WHITE (4300K), you'll NEVER go back.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by wwest

These bulbs have an electric solenoid in the base that move the arc from the EXACTING correct location/position, high or low beam, as the two filaments are in a standard automotive incandescent bulb.

You realize that the arc in an HID bulb is not the same shape as the glowing filament in a halogen bulb, right? That's the root of the problem and moving it around isn't going to fix it.

Here, read this:

Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply

If you still feel that your way is best, nothing I say otherwise will convince you.

JR

[gregwils]

JR - Your points about HID bulbs seem right on the money after I read the Daniel Stern link. However, if you get a chance to look at jimtweets thread you will see he installed projectors, so the HID bulb is inside the projector. The existing reflector isn't used for anything other than a mounting substrate, the projector is an entirely self-contained unit and I would use clear glass from an old VW application so there is no refraction.

Again, I think your points about an HID bulb are completely valid, but I guess I look at this a little differently. I am in no rush to do this, but wanted to see if others are doing the same thing.

[javadog]

I've seen his thread. Using a self-contained light assembly is better than swapping bulbs, IF the light assembly is well designed. That's the key problem. Most are crap, if the tests that I have seen performed are any indication. Search the 'net, you'll see what I mean. But, let's say that you can find a good one...

Rather than hack into a thin reflector and "glue" the light in place, I'd suggest that you make a custom mount that attaches to the stock locations that are used for mounting a sealed beam assembly. You'd still want to fashion some sort of inner trim, to hide the ugly parts, so maybe the reflector could be modified to serve that purpose. It would be attached to the bezel/glass assembly, so the two parts wouldn't touch. It's a lot more work but you'd end up with a better installation.

Of course, my vote is still to just pop in some Euro halogen lights, then crack open a beer and admire them.

JR

[gregwils]

"Of course, my vote is still to just pop in some Euro halogen lights, then crack open a beer and admire them."

Definitely the best part of the project. Like I said earlier, I will probably stick with the Euro H4's. Thanks for your comments.

[dfhtrhjn]

I had the same dilemma. I ended up buying a 55W HID kit with with the 5k (white) H4 style bulb. I mounted one slim ballast on either side of the trunk close to the front and the bulbs sit in your stock H4 buckets. I got it from DTM Tuning

http://www.ddmtuning.com/Products/DDM-HID-Kit-Slim-Ballast-35W-or-55W

The light spread seems fine and they're 5,000 lumens which rocks.

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by javadog

I'd suggest the Euro H4 lights. Retrofit HID kits aren't a good idea, if you ask a lighting engineer. Lot's of people do them but they generally don't do much "engineering", it's more "can I make it fit"?

JR

Aren't the Hella H4's designed the same way as the Bosch Euro H4's with the same lighy bulbs and the same light pattern? Only the look is different?

[Tidybuoy]

I recently switched to Bosch H4's from Hella H4's. The look is much better (in my opinion) but the light output is about the same.

However, adding the lighting relay (sold on Pelican) had a huge effect. Similar to having a 60w bulb and changing to 100w.

If you don't have the relay installed, that should be a priority. It's about $25 and was very easy to install and took about 15minutes.


Re: other questions about H4's and the difference between Bosch & Hella. The light pattern is very similar on the low beam but the Bosch High Beam seems much better. To me, it seems that the high beam points much further down the road.


Vern

[Busta Rib]

If you want HIDs, the only viable solution is to adapt HID projectors to the H4 buckets, a la jimtweet. I have a set that he modified on my car and the light output is superior to OEM and comparable to modern lights. Since the install (about a year now), I have not had one person flash me. And the cutoff is very sharp and similar to BMWs, Hondas, Audi, etc.

Note: these lights require you cut a hole into the fender to accommodate the posterior of the projector/bulb connector. It is about 1.5 inches too long for the OEM cavity. This is the only downside to this mod.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by porwolf

Aren't the Hella H4's designed the same way as the Bosch Euro H4's with the same lighy bulbs and the same light pattern? Only the look is different?

The ones that I am familiar with are completely different. The original Bosch lights are an assembly consisting of a lens, trim ring, inner housing and a reflector. They are similar in outward appearance to an H1 light. The Hella lights that I've used have been drop-in replacement assemblies for the original US sealed beam lights. Either one works about the same, give or take.

JR

[wwest]

Originally Posted by javadog

You realize that the arc in an HID bulb is not the same shape as the glowing filament in a halogen bulb, right? That's the root of the problem and moving it around isn't going to fix it.

Here, read this:

Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply

If you still feel that your way is best, nothing I say otherwise will convince you.

JR

Okay, so the filament is what, 1/4" long...?

So yes, the arc is maybe 0.000050" at best.

But you're right, NOTHING you say will convice me otherwise.

As ever, the proof is in the pudding.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by wwest

As ever, the proof is in the pudding.

You ever notice that none of the "swap the bulb" retrofit kits are legal? And it's not just the US of A that thinks poorly of them. The ECE won't allow them either. Hella makes a complete conversion kit that has a self leveling feature and is ECE approved, but it doesn't retrofit into another type of exisiting light.

But, I'm sure your installation is different and you've engineered away all of the problems that plague everybody else.

JR

[ratpiper71T]

To the original poster, you do realize there are also higher watt setups with the H4 euro or scoops that will flame-thrower the roadway, right check the Daniel Stern page for the info and correct way to set this up.
HIDs on early cars, well don't get me wrong- I really admire all the effort and engineering skill that the formentioned fellows have put into their design, but I guess it's not for me- they look like those aftermarket turn signal assemblies the kid put on their Hondas these days, blek...

[wwest]

Originally Posted by javadog

You ever notice that none of the "swap the bulb" retrofit kits are legal?

You do recognize, do you not, that your statement applies to ANY bulb swap, incandescent to HID, or incandescent to BRIGHTER, higher wattage, incandescent..??

And it's not just the US of A that thinks poorly of them. The ECE won't allow them either.

How many laws, laws that NO ONE abides by, remain on the books today only because law enforcement recognizes the obsolesence of them..?? Coasting downhill in neutral, say...??

Hella makes a complete conversion kit that has a self leveling feature and is ECE approved, but it doesn't retrofit into another type of exisiting light.

But, I'm sure your installation is different and you've engineered away all of the problems that plague everybody else.

JR

So now we've gone from the arc vs filament position/structure to the self-leveling one. For that one I'll grant you an exception, you're right.

Or, the other hand most vehicles so rarely endue even moderately heavy loads near the rear, and drive at night, that auto-leveling might be useless. Or, if you have the expectation of same you can always be conservative about where you set the low beam high cutoff.

The possibility of a Porsche 911 having use for auto-leveling headlights must be miniscule.