In a crap predicament (drain plug issue)

[CorsePerVita]

So I just got off the phone with the shop owner.

They said it is my issue. Apparently the excuse is that "due to environmental conditions, water builds up and makes those hard to remove." when I explained to him that the copper washer was flared, and that the sump plug was just as tight, he said it's apparently a "common issue"... I told him I've never encountered issues with doing an oil change on this car. He said it is coincidence that the sump plug is just as tight and would have nothing to do with it when I was trying to make the point that if one was tight, the other was as well...

He said they'd be glad to extract it, but at MY cost. I told them it was already to the point where it's rounded off, nut welded and a broken extractor and he said that it's my fault that I got it to that point and I should have "Just called when it started to round off".

He got defensive and basically said I was trying to say his mechanics aren't professional and go in tearing stuff up (even though I mentioned the valve covers and valve adjustment was beautifully done). At that point, the wall went up and I got nothing.

So basically I'm being told it's an old car, an old car problem and a common issue. This is the FIRST time I've heard of anyone needing a breaker bar and that extent of torque to remove a tank drain bolt. However, he was adamant that it "takes a special touch with a breaker bar" to "crack it just right" - Never heard of that, never experienced it.

I've spent a lot of money there and never had an issue till now. I will not be setting foot in their doors ever again.

[CorsePerVita]

Originally Posted by RWebb

was this shop in Redmond? or Bend?

you will want to discuss compensation for your time h the manager

also show him the price of a new tank and the shipping costs

Bend.

[CorsePerVita]

Called up Pelican as well as Ians Euro Parts (done alot of business with both over the years.) - both of them said that it should not be an issue. Ian told me that he's had issues on tanks where they sat out in the open off the car and were hard to get off. But when I explained to him that I have welded a nut on it and used a 1/2" extractor bit, he said, "Holy crap!"

I called up pelican and the guy I spoke to in Porsche parts said he's been working on 911s for years, his own, his friends, and even worked at a shop prior and he never encountered that.

My conclusion is that it's an excuse, the shop doesn't want to fix it. I'm now going to have to deal with this.

So... following up:

- Can the tank be removed without removing the engine? If not, not the end of the world. But preferable, if I can.

- What is the best way to do this and salvage the tank?

- I do have a friend who works on imports, not Porsche cars, but he has a lot of professional tools for extraction and I DO trust him (he has worked on my domestic/import cars in the past) and he has never ever wronged me and he is willing to back his work and the extraction. He owes me a favor anyway.

Fun story - they supposedly (same shop) did an oil change on the 931 I just bought too, and yesterday after fighting with the 911 I decided to do an oil change on that car. Guess what, the oil plug won't come out on it either. It started to round, I backed off and will just have it extracted. Not in a fantastic mood.

[Joe Bob]

Well, it's easier if the tank is empty. Try the vise grips with a pipe on the end.......or just disconnect the oil lines and drain. Not a lot holding it in there. I still think you have a chance of getting the bung out of there.

Putting the car up on jack stands and removing the tire helps.

Having a torch with MAPP gas and large crescent wrenches is a plus in case you decide to replace or pull oil lines.

http://www.renntech.info/SharedData/Manuals/911/911%201972-1983%20Workshop%20manual%20Deel%201%20Motor%20en%2 0Koppeling.pdf

[RWebb]

take the sender out and use a $5 transfer pump to get the oil out

try vise-grips first then move on to other things

https://justice.oregon.gov/forms/consumer_complaint.asp

[Ronnie's.930]

Someone mentioned this before, but if you are able to grind a notch, suitable for a punch and/or chisel bit, in what is left of the plug, an air hammer will likely spin that MF right out . . .

[911pcars]

In any attempt to fix something, it's always better to try the easy things first. You've tried the pipe wrench, broken tap, repair shop return strategy. Now what?

Without further risk to the tank, I think the most prudent idea is to not make it worse. Applying excessive torque to that area can rip/distort the metal around it. I'd rather recycle and reuse and not create too many NLA parts for future owners. Thus, remove the tank from the car. Working at a comfortable height with adequate work space does wonders for minimizing the frustration level.

Several options once on the bench.
1. Clean the tank of excess oil, then transfer the tank to a machine shop where they can properly machine-delete enough of the plug/tap to remove it w/o damaging the tank. Judiciously applied heat might accomplish the same thing, but remember, the tank is only sheet metal, and torch-heated sheet metal is far from rigid.

2. Purchase a used tank as JoeBob and others have suggested. Have it cleaned and leak-checked, then install. Fairly easy with the correct size hose wrenches. I would replace the factory drain plug with a Fumoto ball valve (avail. here in the parts catalog) and not worry about the drain plug again. BTW, the drain plugs normally require excess torque to remove. A long pipe over a 1/2" or 3/4" dr. flex handle works for me. In addition, remember "righty tighty" and "lefty loosey" appear different depending on your location. I've seen good used tanks for <$200.

3. If you pursue option 2, repair your orig. tank at your leisure. Once repaired, sell it to the next person who searches this forum for answers to his dilemma.

After removing the sump plug, apply anti-seize compound to the threads.

Hope this helps,
Sherwood

[Norm Faustino]

Originally Posted by trond

don't let them touch your car again. if they are that stupid they may destroy the tank or torch the car.

You beat me to it!

I remember when I had that problem years ago, I took the biggest vise grips I had and pulled like there's no tomorrow... nothing, so I went to re-position the tool when all of a sudden, the grips let go and Jackie Channed me in the thumb. YEEEEOOW! I jumped up pissed as hell and match struck my ear on my floor jack handle DOUBLE YEEEOOW! Now I'm doing an indian Pow wow dance while hands are trembling with pain. I swear it must have taken me two days of trying everything. I was looking like Wylie Coyote then I finally managed to get it off with a pipe wrench. Try it!

[CorsePerVita]

Originally Posted by RWebb

take the sender out and use a $5 transfer pump to get the oil out

try vise-grips first then move on to other things

https://justice.oregon.gov/forms/consumer_complaint.asp

At this point, I don't want to talk to them, email them, snail mail them or even smell a hint of anything from their direction. So I don't feel like dealing with a consumer complaint. I highly doubt they'll fix my issue and at this point I don't want to continue business with them after this anyway. I don't think it'll get me anywhere.

I will try the vice-grips though.

Originally Posted by 911pcars

In any attempt to fix something, it's always better to try the easy things first. You've tried the pipe wrench, broken tap, repair shop return strategy. Now what?

Without further risk to the tank, I think the most prudent idea is to not make it worse. Applying excessive torque to that area can rip/distort the metal around it. I'd rather recycle and reuse and not create too many NLA parts for future owners. Thus, remove the tank from the car. Working at a comfortable height with adequate work space does wonders for minimizing the frustration level.

Several options once on the bench.
1. Clean the tank of excess oil, then transfer the tank to a machine shop where they can properly machine-delete enough of the plug/tap to remove it w/o damaging the tank. Judiciously applied heat might accomplish the same thing, but remember, the tank is only sheet metal, and torch-heated sheet metal is far from rigid.

2. Purchase a used tank as JoeBob and others have suggested. Have it cleaned and leak-checked, then install. Fairly easy with the correct size hose wrenches. I would replace the factory drain plug with a Fumoto ball valve (avail. here in the parts catalog) and not worry about the drain plug again. BTW, the drain plugs normally require excess torque to remove. A long pipe over a 1/2" or 3/4" dr. flex handle works for me. In addition, remember "righty tighty" and "lefty loosey" appear different depending on your location. I've seen good used tanks for <$200.

3. If you pursue option 2, repair your orig. tank at your leisure. Once repaired, sell it to the next person who searches this forum for answers to his dilemma.

After removing the sump plug, apply anti-seize compound to the threads.

Hope this helps,
Sherwood

Good suggestions. I too am afraid of mucking up the metal around it if it can be salvaged. If I can get it out I'll take it to a machine shop and have it extracted that way.

Originally Posted by Norm Faustino

You beat me to it!

I remember when I had that problem years ago, I took the biggest vise grips I had and pulled like there's no tomorrow... nothing, so I went to re-position the tool when all of a sudden, the grips let go and Jackie Channed me in the thumb. YEEEEOOW! I jumped up pissed as hell and match struck my ear on my floor jack handle DOUBLE YEEEOOW! Now I'm doing an indian Pow wow dance while hands are trembling with pain. I swear it must have taken me two days of trying everything. I was looking like Wylie Coyote then I finally managed to get it off with a pipe wrench. Try it!

Was this with your oil tank? Are you saying you experienced the same thing? Or are you just referencing "in general"?

[Norm Faustino]

Originally Posted by CorsePerVita

At this point, I don't want to talk to them, email them, snail mail them or even smell a hint of anything from their direction. So I don't feel like dealing with a consumer complaint. I highly doubt they'll fix my issue and at this point I don't want to continue business with them after this anyway. I don't think it'll get me anywhere.

I will try the vice-grips though.



Good suggestions. I too am afraid of mucking up the metal around it if it can be salvaged. If I can get it out I'll take it to a machine shop and have it extracted that way.



Was this with your oil tank? Are you saying you experienced the same thing? Or are you just referencing "in general"?

Yep, same thing. The PO had put a really skinny crush washer on the drain plug and it looked like part of it got drawn into the threads which caused a small leak. I didn't drill it or cut it though. I tried dry ice, heat, PB blaster until pipewrench got it out.

[CorsePerVita]

Originally Posted by Norm Faustino

Yep, same thing. The PO had put a really skinny crush washer on the drain plug and it looked like part of it got drawn into the threads which caused a small leak. I didn't drill it or cut it though. I tried dry ice, heat, PB blaster until pipewrench got it out.

So it had nothing to do with "water building up at the bottom of the tank" but someone doing it incorrectly. That's exactly what I'm dealing with, the copper washer on the sump plug was flared, tapered almost. It's not flat. It's angled. But apparently to them that is a "coincidence"...

Thanks for the positive reinforcement.

[manbridge 74]

I think once you get the tank off you'll be able to lay a good bead all the way around a nut and get it off. If tank gets distorted from heat or if threads get ruined, post a pic of the tank. I have one off a 74 that, while probably not the same as an 82 without making some modifications, I'd let you have it cheap.

[CorsePerVita]

Originally Posted by manbridge 74

I think once you get the tank off you'll be able to lay a good bead all the way around a nut and get it off. If tank gets distorted from heat or if threads get ruined, post a pic of the tank. I have one off a 74 that, while probably not the same as an 82 without making some modifications, I'd let you have it cheap.

I appreciate the support. Within 3 pages of this thread I've got 100,000,000x times more support than I'd ever have got from the local shop. This community is amazing.

[CorsePerVita]

Sounds like there may be a happy ending after all.

I sent a fairly lengthy email about my frustrations with the phone conversation from this morning. I decided after sending it, that it may actually be a bit better to just go down face to face, be nice, and clear any bad air between us and just sort it out. My email wasn't rude, more a vent, a hopeful clarification and a sort of, "here's the situation, i don't feel this is fair, is my business worth a $10 plug extraction?" So I went down there hoping to sort this out.

The owner was out and I ended up speaking with the service manager. He heard my voicemails I left over the weekend and said it isn't worth the frustration, misunderstanding, etc. He said I was welcome to bring it in and they will fix it. Sounds like I can go ahead and watch as well to make sure it's going to be ok. I basically said, "Look, I realize I messed up the plug... but it shouldn't be this bad... if I did it, then I'd fix it... no issues." so he just said bring it in, let's fix it.

At this point, I'm going to go ahead and go with it. If the owner tells me otherwise, well, I'll deal with it later. However, at this point, the service manager was quite understanding and we did talk a bit about it. One of the mechanics was over-hearing the conversation and confirmed the same thing the owner said about the tank plugs being sometimes stubborn. I described the amount of effort it took and he said perhaps the plug may have already partially been rounded or towards the end of its life. In which case my response was "then we should have just replaced it..." and he agreed. However, it is what it is at this point in time. So it won't fix what's currently in the situation, which is a rounded of crap plug.

He did offer me a few tips if I wanted to try it myself a few more times, but said either way, I can bring it down and they'll figure it out. They have pictures of it, so they know what they're dealing with.

Although I am a tad baffled at the differences in my experience with the owner vs the service manager. One was defensive, angry and upset. The other was cool joe about it and said don't worry about it we'll fix it. Note to self, ask for the service manager.

[RWebb]

good!

now let's see a pic of the car at speed in the high desert...

[aschen]

Have you tried one of those "overshot" type extractors. You hammer them over an ID and they have a reverse thread cut in them to grip.

They are way tougher and more effective than the ID type extractors where you drill a bolt. Sears sells a set for about 20$

[McLovin]

The answer has been given several times in this thread.

You can have that off in 5 minutes.

Use an angle grinder and simply grind the head off the bolt. Grind it all the way off, all the way down to the washer.

Once the head is off the bolt, ALL tension/torque will be gone. In other words, the torque on the bolt will be zero. You'll be able to easily unscrew the remaining bolt.

[A horse with no name]

Hi...Good ending! Re taking it back to them -> 'Good Move!'
Being civil usually works for the best in all situatons. It sounds like they were a little over zealous with both the sump and oil tank bolts...As in they did not want them to fall out

It is odd but true regarding how many mechanics don't apply what they should have been taught...Washers nor gaskets are not meant to be 'crushed' as it defeats their purpose - Squeesed with proper torque but not tightend until they can't go any further...Like I was saying, it's an extremly common practice with both those who are tradesmen or backyarders. Sometimes 'all that just 'ends' can be good but it appears you did better - It ended 'well'

Originally Posted by CorsePerVita

Sounds like there may be a happy ending after all.

I sent a fairly lengthy email about my frustrations with the phone conversation from this morning. I decided after sending it, that it may actually be a bit better to just go down face to face, be nice, and clear any bad air between us and just sort it out. My email wasn't rude, more a vent, a hopeful clarification and a sort of, "here's the situation, i don't feel this is fair, is my business worth a $10 plug extraction?" So I went down there hoping to sort this out.

The owner was out and I ended up speaking with the service manager. He heard my voicemails I left over the weekend and said it isn't worth the frustration, misunderstanding, etc. He said I was welcome to bring it in and they will fix it. Sounds like I can go ahead and watch as well to make sure it's going to be ok. I basically said, "Look, I realize I messed up the plug... but it shouldn't be this bad... if I did it, then I'd fix it... no issues." so he just said bring it in, let's fix it.

At this point, I'm going to go ahead and go with it. If the owner tells me otherwise, well, I'll deal with it later. However, at this point, the service manager was quite understanding and we did talk a bit about it. One of the mechanics was over-hearing the conversation and confirmed the same thing the owner said about the tank plugs being sometimes stubborn. I described the amount of effort it took and he said perhaps the plug may have already partially been rounded or towards the end of its life. In which case my response was "then we should have just replaced it..." and he agreed. However, it is what it is at this point in time. So it won't fix what's currently in the situation, which is a rounded of crap plug.

He did offer me a few tips if I wanted to try it myself a few more times, but said either way, I can bring it down and they'll figure it out. They have pictures of it, so they know what they're dealing with.

Although I am a tad baffled at the differences in my experience with the owner vs the service manager. One was defensive, angry and upset. The other was cool joe about it and said don't worry about it we'll fix it. Note to self, ask for the service manager.

[porschenut]

Both the owner and the tech are FOS. These plugs, when properly torqued to spec, are EASY to remove with a little effort using a regular ratchet. They come right off. Yours were WAY overtorqued, probably with an air hammer, and may even be cross-threaded. It is not a common problem at all. They caused it.

[A horse with no name]

+1 -Well said Porschenut - Spot on!