Rmm,

Barrier hoses and new o-rings will eliminate most refrigerant leaks.
A new drier is SOP.
Adding a low/high pressure switch will help protect the system.
The 86+ evaporators are prone to leakage, might as well upgrade Kuehl Serpentine
You model has larger side vents, adding a Kuehl Center Vent will help move more air.
I would stick with the Denso on a 84+ car.

Depending upon your climate and needs you may need to explore other upgrades
Fender Condensers and Kuehl Front Condenser.

There are several good threads on AC Upgrades, try some of these:
for example:
A/C Upgrade Project starts tomorrow!

Mr. Ice Project

Customer Comments

I will gladly and willingly testify that Kuehl's company makes good and reliable aftermarket A/C products that can and do substantially improve upon the factory A/C system...

But...

Kuehl is fully tied up in marketing all the expensive little add-on FIRST, fully aware that if he first goes for the "goal" he will end up with a lot less of your cash in his pockets.

So if you are wishing to improve the cooling capability of your Porsche A/C using reputable and reliable products then FIRST.

Buy and install Kuehl's fender mounted condensor/fan combination upgrade. And then after a summer's use if you feel you need one of two of the add-ons then so be it.

If, on the other hand you are into DIY, or do not have the deep pockets required of Kuehl, then consider adding additional cooling fans for the engine lid mounted condensor.

West- why are you afraid to compare your setup with a full kit?

Where is your airflow test data for this?

It is my FIRM opinion that Kuehl's FULL KIT consists mostly of snake oil, items that do not contribute enough additional cooling capability to warrant the cost.

You're kidding me, right..? Just look at the OEM fin structure vs the Kuehl front lip condensor fin structure.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1366606826.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1366606857.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1366606897.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1366606929.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1366606964.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1366606992.jpg

I ♥ the a/c threads !!!! :D Now where's that guy selling/not selling his be-all-end-all, super badass, freeze yer balls off, everything else on the market is Fred Flintstone technology, micro channel condensers?! :p

Just a reminder that the OP wanted people to share their upgraded systems and the results of the upgrades with him.
If you haven't upgraded your system, I guess you don't have much to share here.
Oh and by the way, if you don't change out your receiver/filter drier you are begging for oil contamination on your new system and other contaminants that may be lingering after removing the R12 and mineral oil based lubricant. Pretty cheap $80 insurance that your system will run clean and dry.


I pulled this out of one of the upgrade threads. This gentleman had performed a full on Kuel upgrade to his car. I believe that the original poster is more interested in the results not opinion. That is just my opinion though! ;)

Quote:
Last Summer I drove my 85 911 to Savannah GA in AUGUST. On one day-tour on the way to lunch my wife actually asked me to turn the temp up. When I drove to Roebling Road for the DE I knew it was going to be a brutal hot day. I had the AC cranked up to max to soak up as much cool as possible on the trip from Savannah to Roebling Road. I got there in the morning and the roof of the car on the outside was covered in moisture. My 911 looked like a big white beer can that just came out of the fridge. It was covered in condensation. My glasses instantly fogged up when I stepped out of the car.

The AC was tested to the max on my trip home to Oklahoma. We were driving due west for many hours in the afternoon and it was 105 outside. The sun was shining into our faces and we could feel the heat of the sun on our chest. The AC kept us reasonably comfortable.

I have the system from Griffiths. 4 total condensers and the new evaporator, and all new hoses running R-12.
__________________
Glen
36 Year member of the Porsche Club of America
1985 911 Carrera with very cold A/C
1986 El Camino with Fuel Injected 350 Crate Engine
2008 Infiniti G35x (wifes car)

Exactly a year ago I was also in the market for an a/c system upgrade to my stock 1987 Targa. I too did all the research with the various aftermarket a/c vendors and I decided to ride the Kuehl horse. I can honestly say that the great customer service support alone was worth it. But the system speaks for its self - super cool temps on the hottest summer days.

Originally I was going to have my mechanic do the complete install but after reading through the very detailed installation guide, I decided to tackle the project myself. Kuehl gave me several options on which components to upgrade but I got a case of "while you are in there" and went for the major upgrade (every a/c part except the rear deck lid condenser and the compressor) including the duel-Kuehl fender mount condensers. I am by no means a mechanic, but I was able to tackle this project (along with a few calls to Kuehl to walk me over some hurdles) and it was very self rewarding. After the system was put back together, I had it professionally charged and began enjoying the ice cold a/c. My mechanic was shocked that the vent temps were able to get so low on a car this old.

So a year later, do I have any regrets? Not at all. Was this a bit more than I what I budgeted? Yes, but it's a Porsche, right?. If you plan on keeping your car for a long time and want to enjoy it during the dog days of summer, go for it and do the work yourself. I see you mentioned that you reside in CT, so if you go with the Kuehl system, I would recommend the drive over to his shop in North Jersey to pick up the parts (that's what I did).

You can send me a message offline to discuss in more detail and I can send you some pics if you like. I don't know who this wwest character is, but if someone has to be so in your face and have a pompous disposition, I wouldn't pay too much attention to him.

We're not looking for opinions. We're looking for a comparison. Would it be that hard to compare? If your setup works as well as you say it does, then I'll happily strip out my Zimms condenser and add some fans. I just need to know it works, and your opinion, with all due respect, is pretty worthless given how crazy you get in these posts.

Wwest does make some logical statements:
From this thread:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/731466-ac-install.html

Originally Posted by wwest ? View Post

I have never cast negative aspirsions about Kuehl's technical expertise, certainty not in his product area.

Kuehl's product set, and air cooled 911 A/C system knowledge, is now more historic than otherwise.

I'm of the opinion that the non-barrier hoses were probably the problem...

I think the system (Kuehl) is probably the best performing system out there, and the price reflects that.

"..Last summer..."

Off-thread, sorta...

Glen's post brought something to mind that has puzzled me for many years. When I was growing up in the south, NE Arkansas, a window fan is the most I can remember for "air conditioning". Chopping cotton in the HEAT. When we came to an area of sandy soil we would work our BARE feet (shoes were only for school) down into the sand for the coolness and stretch out with the hoe as far as we could reach before having to lift our feet out of the "cool". On a HOT day burrowing down into the cotton in the trailer to get out of the HEAT and take a quick after DINNER (now lunch) nap.

These days when I go "home" everyone has home A/C turned to to the CHILL factor and same with the car. Only exposure to the real world is during the walk from house to car or reverse.

I suppose I could get used to that eventually but in the meantime...

But might "this" (SmileWavy above) be why I have such an apparently gross misunderstanding of the adequacy of the Porsche A/C as used in the Southland...?

Here in the North we settle for moderacy both inside and outside...? No need for supercool, CHILLING, A/C capability..?

So yes, if so then the Porsche factory A/C will always be deemed inadequate for southerners.

No, I'm not kidding. You make a claim, and you prove it with test data. This is a technical forum, after all. Science is a funny thing - you don't get to dream something up then say "this is the way things are" - you have to support your idea with actual test data. Even "observed facts" lead to wrong conclusions sometimes. Like your "observed fact" of airflow. Like the "observed fact" of a geocentric universe. Exactly like that, in fact.

Your "observed fact" of pressure rise - it would be easy to hook up your test equipment and make a YouTube video. I frankly am having difficulty believing a 500psi high-side - I want to see it with my own eyes.

If you already have the fender condensor/fan system installed then I would NEVER recommend a needless de-install. On the other hand I have located a few posts wherein the owner went ahead and added the rear deck lid fans, some for the after-run engine cool down effect, and some for the additional cooling.

"...need to know it works..."

If you have a need, requirement, for the level of A/C cooling capability reflected upon by Glenn in post #48 then no, the rear lid fans will not yeild adequate cooling and you will need to go all-out with Kuehl, open your checkbook WIDE.

Science says that water will freeze if it's temperature is reduced to/below 32F...

Do you need test data or does your own personal knowledge and/or experience level indicate the truth of that science.

Directly from the horse's mouth, as it were.

Read the last paragraph...

The Mr. Ice Project, Porsche 911 Air Conditioning Compressor Upgrade

Then why can't you just demonstrate the capability of your setup?! I mean, for the love of god - what is the damn holdup for you not giving any data on your setup, other than "I'll ship my car to MO for my nephew to drive, and I'll show you guys how well it works."

But a damn thermometer in your dash vent when it's hot outside, at idle, and post the results. How ****ing hard can that be?

Do you know who respects someone that has a whole bunch of theories but won't prove them, but will happily rail against more established ideas? Nobody. Nobody respects people like that in the science world, engineering world, and nobody should listen to you when they're considering spending their own money because you're completely unproven. Nobody gives a ***** that it works for you, because who knows. Maybe you're comfort level also involves running across hot coals and boxing with a hippo.

If you don't know how to setup a simple experiment to test an idea and analyze results, the how in the hell are we supposed to believe *any* of your ideas?

Either post up some numbers, or stop talking.

Wwest,

Make it easier for the reader:

"(2) Compressor life is also affected by temperatures. When high side pressures rise the temperature increases correspondingly. Should the high side pressures get too high the switch will cut off the power to the clutch as well. In addition to protecting your compressor investment there is another side to the "high" side pressure issue. AC systems can release (leak) refrigerant when pressures get too high (such as found with pressure release ports) so the EPA requires that when you convert to R134a with systems that have high pressure release ports you will need to install a cut out switch. In either case the switch is a very smart idea if you want to extend compressor life and these switches are typically found on most modern a/c systems. "

So Wwest, what obscure point are you trying to fabricate from the statement?

Here, I'll make it easier for you to play around with concise english:

"AC systems can release (leak) refrigerant when pressures get too high".
The adverb 'too': to an excessive extent or degree; beyond what is desirable.
In the context of the statement, such as when a preferred-normally operating R134a system in a 911 would be at 80Fambient 202psi up through 100F ambient 276 psi,
and most systems can operate up to 350 psi without leaks, and for some reason the system gets 350 psi plus, the high side cut off switch turns off the compressor,
or in cases where the system had a "pressure relief valve" (as found on some early driers, however the EPA does not want those rascal's venting out).

Now, on the other hand if Wwest is trying to elude to his concept which can be found in other posts he has made, where he thinks the loss of refrigerant is somehow
magically caused when the compressor is off and the engine is hot, and we are still waiting on his data showing a video of his gauges rising up to the heavens with and without his unique fans running over the engine deck lid?

He's saying that system overpressure is where the working fluid goes. And here, right in this paragraph, is the "proof".

What I find hilariously ironic is that after bashing the living schitt out of you, he then uses your website as "proof". Selective use of data, while ignoring other data that doesn't agree, is called "lying" in most scientific circles.

The experiments have already been designed for him. It's not a matter of not knowing how. It's a matter of him being unwilling to put his hypotheses to the test.

See, if the numbers proved him wrong, he wouldn't be able to defecate all over Griff at EVERY opportunity - you'll notice that he takes any and every opportunity to call Griff and his products names in all of these threads. I don't know what Charlie did to this guy's dog/family, but it must have been REALLY BAD. ;)

Numbers...

Comparison: 2001 C4, 2001 AWD RX300, and '95 LS400. When driving either of these vehicles the temperature setting I use is 72F. These modern A/C designs lean more to the side of avoiding discomfort from too COOL/COLD outlet airflow in fully automatic mode. So, to get QUICK initial cooldown I often must turn the system to recirculate (post a period of FRESH long enough to purge the HOT cabin atmosphere) and maximum COOLING until the cabin atmosphere, and somewhat less so, the cabin materials/surfaces, are cooled down to a more satisfactory comfortrange.

The C4 has a manual switch modification that I use to open the compressor clutch circuit when I have no need for A/C cooling capability. Otherwise it, like the Lexus', would operate 24/7 even in the dead of winter. Conversely with the LS I often manually close the valve that allows engine coolant to enter the heater core during the summer months.

The RX came with a factory capability of disabling the A/C compressor 24/7 operation indefinitely to avoid the cooling aspect except when needed.

The '88 Carrera:

I rarely need to go to extremes for rapid cabin cooldown but when I do it means lowering the windows slightly and turning on the fresh air blower to most quickly purge the cabin of HOT atmosphere.

Other than that rarity, like the Lexus' and C4, the system gets turned to maximum cooling and blower speed until the cabin is cooled down to a satisfactory comfort level. Once that point is reached the blower gets reduced to "nil", lowest setting, and the Compressor cycling point "tweaked" to satisfy our cooling needs while also avoiding the discomfort of excessive cool airflow toward our face and upper body.

So, the '88 Carrera, for us, offers A/C cooling capability equal to either the Lexus (Lexii..?) or C4.

So I have had no reason to measure system vent temperatures and still do not see the reasonableness of such a request given the completely satifactory system performance we have experienced and now related.

But if it pleases you, still...

A few points. The '88, '95, and C4 all have aftermarket window tinting. The RX came with factory tinted windows. The main reason I added the fans to the '88 resulted from it's often use in the high desert areas of WA and OR. Absent that need I think we were satisfied with the factory system.

I tend to stay away from the A/C threads due to the drama (I get enough of that at home with my 13 yr old daughter!).

FWIW, I went with the full monty kit from Retroaire. I went with them mainly because they had the PFC rear consenser as part of their package. My stock tube and fin had developed a leak from rubbing on the coil.

I did the entire conversion and charging myself and couldn't be more please. Cold air at a higher velocity even on the hottest AZ days! The Sanden compressor upgrade over the York vibrates less and draws much less power. It also weighs less and helps unclutter the engine bay. Worth the cost and effort.

The only thing I would do different is to replace the front tube and fin condenser with a PFC condenser. The fins on the stock T&F condenser are brittle and flaking off due to being old and thermal cycles.

http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/a...untitled-1.jpg

Loved the duel Kuehl w/R134 on my '74 Targa and will likely upgrade my '89 eventually. With the '89 R12 version operating perfectly, vent temps are about 15 degrees lower in the duel Kuehl system with no front condenser or fan (except on the Kuehl rear fender well condensers). The well maintained, factory improved version in the '89 is better than nothing, but never truly comfortable in the summer except at night. Personally, I can't see driving an uncomfortable car...even a KIA. I want vent temps in the mid to low 30s at 90 degrees ambient. I don't find it too difficult to spend a grand or two on AC when glass-out paint jobs and engine rebuilds are often $10k.

The other possibility that I hadn't considered as very likely. You're just a troll who gets jollies from p!ss!ng in every one of these threads.

Hmmm, I've never filtered anyone in my whole time on USENET and the various car forums after that, but I might have to explore vB's user tools...

Original Poster here

Wow. In my many years of posting on car forums I've never seen anything like this. Thanks to those offering solutions.

Kuehl: Many reviews and PMs suggest your all-in system can turn the 911 into a meat locker in New Orleans. My question is: for someone who wants not to sweat in their car in New England (95 deg, high humidity for lets say 3 mos) but is happy with a system that is not Lexus grade, what would be you recommendation for a "phase 1" upgrade? I'd like to do things that don't preclude further upgrades but allow me to test the system to see if its right before investing say $3500. I'd be happy to start with an investment closer to say, $1000 and see where it gets me. Is this a reasonable position?

The "jest" of what "he" is saying is that should you have an older system that incorporates a "Vent to Atmosphere" high pressure side relief valve and wish to convert to R-134a type refrigerant then a binary pressure sensing compressor clutch control switch is REQUIRED. Otherwise you might well have repetitive episodes of loss of R134a refrigerant.

Quite a clear indication that converting "our" systems to R-134a without the addition of a binary control switch (or other measures) to limit high pressures due to compressor "over-run" thereby possibly developing a unique version of the Vent-to-Atmosphere high pressure relief valve.

"Other measures"...Use the activation of auxillary refrigerant condensing BOOST. For instance use a trinary pressure switch, 3rd function, to switch on an extra cooling fan(s) to prevent an extraordinary rise in system pressures, engine running or no.

Now that we know, must acknowledge, that excessive high side pressures can and do exist, might it be possible to admit that might be the base case of refrigerant leakage, system pressures BEYOND the design specification for those infamous "non-barrier" hoses used so successfully elsewhere within the automotive industry.

Cheapest A/C upgrade is to get a 964 or 993.
Next best is the Griffith system
I have a 911 Targa in San Antonio running R12. It is an original VWoA unit with a Sanden compressor , rear engine condenser. Plus , since I have the front RS spoiler I placed the normal front condensor in place of the normal center oil cooler. Once I'm moving I've got plenty of A/C. My problem is that with all that glass, when I leave it parked it takes some time to cool down, short runs are the worst. Stopped in traffic is just marginal.

I got away for MUCH less than $3500. Less than $2000, actually.

Barrier hoses. Front condenser. Drier. Serpentine evaporator. Evaporator blower/controls upgrade. Convert to R-134a.

Where I live, it can get very hot - over 100 degrees F. But it is rarely humid. In fact, during really hot times, it can be 10% humidity or less. I can get a delta of 30 degrees between the interior of the car and the outside air, easily - and maintain it. I don't try for much more than that, because when it's 100 out, 70 inside the car is very nice. I might try and see what kind of total delta I can get this summer - let's see if I can get the interior down to 50 degrees, LOL.

Should Kuehl come back with ANY suggestion other than first starting out with some form of additional refrigerant condensing efficiency improvement ONLY, then I will agree to paying HALF of the purchase price of the competition's version of same.

Dude. Please. This isn't high school debate club. Just looking for info. Not swallowing in all, just reading. Shhh.

For starters, you need to ignore everything wwest says.

For any AC setup to work consistently (and that is what we all want), you need to switch to 134 and get barrier hoses. The old hoses just leak a lot, for various reasons, and as a foundational AC setup, you need to get barrier hoses. You can have them made locally somewhere, or buy them from various vendors.

Because you'll be opening up the system, you'll need a new dryer.

At that point, you'll might want to think about a new compressor and an additional condenser. Zimms, Kuehl, Griff - any one will do the trick. I think that's a solid start. If funds are a constraint (and who doesn't care about how much they spend?), I'd research Griff and kuehl, and maybe start with an incremental setup from each. But, what you don't want to do is buy a bunch of parts without thought to how they work together. So, buying a compressor from someone, then a condenser from someone else - they might not be the most efficient setup, though it may be the cheapest. Both Kuehl and Griff are awesome - from all standpoints.

But, as a minimum, you'll need 134 and barrier hoses. Check to make sure the fan on the front condenser works, too. It's really hard for anyone to evaluate what your needs are, but I'd start with that. It may provide the cooling you need at HWY speeds, but it's not going to be enough for stop and go traffic on a hot and sunny day. For me, the AC setup needs to be damn good as nothing is worse than sitting in stop and go traffic with sweat dripping down your back. The system either needs to work well at all times, or not at all. That's just my personal viewpoint.

Which compressor do you have, and do you have the condenser on the rear deckled? Also, what year was your car again? If you can do the work yourself, than a grand in parts will get you pretty close to what you want, I'd think. That's what all my parts ended up costing. It was the 1700 in labor that was expensive.

I live in the same conditions, but it's a bit harsher here. The air is thinner so cooling efficiency is reduced, and the sun is more potent, so solar heating is more. I'll try and do the same as I feel my setup is a half-way setup, compared to going all out. I don't think mine will cool to meat locker temps, but it'll be interesting to see what I can get the temp down to.

"..if I can get the interior down to 50 degrees.." That would be well into my area of system discomfort.

Shall I assume that's the best you can do even at consistent freeway speeds, elevated engine RPM?

You need to act QUICKLY, before HOT arrives, to add a binary pressure switch to control/limit your compressor cycling, cycles. Otherwise, just as Kuehl will advise you, a blown system seal, o-ring, compressor shaft seal, might be in your near future.

Nobody should entertain this guy anymore with posts. He can either figure out how to contribute in a valuable way, or we'll just ignore him.

Interior temps are variable based on tinting, insulation, etc. Vent temps are what one should compare.

Agreed. Under "User CP", go down to "Settings and Options" and click on "Ignore List". You can add a username.

Then that person's posts won't show. You can see that the person posted, just not what they posted, unless you click on the link "view post".

wwest will continue to p!ss in Griff's Wheaties, no doubt. I just won't have to watch it.

I agree. I can monitor both, however. And in so doing, see what kind of delta I can get.

I know that the interior of the car can go from being damn hot to almost comfortable before I reach the first stoplight, so the system functions pretty well already. It doesn't take me long to turn the thing to the lowest setting, and run it that way for the rest of my trip.