Ac hoses for flare and o-ring

[quattrorunner]

I have a car with no ac but have some parts from a 87 930. I have a front condenser, evaporator, and nipendenso compressor. I'm getting a belly condenser with unknown fittings and pro cooler with adapters.
Question is if I bought the barrier hoses from our host, would I be better off with flare fittings or o ring fitting hose set? Thanks.
I realize I'll have some hoses ill need to add with this setup.

[kuehl]

Either flare or o-ring connections, when properly joined, will work.

OEM hoses with steel flare fittings, typically found on 911's prior to 1984 and 930's prior to 1983, used copper crush washers between the component and hose fitting; when using OEM these old hoses you need to replace the copper crush washers.
OEM hoses with o-ring fittings came about for the 911 in 1984 and the 930 around 1983.

Companies that supply new hoses with flare fittings typically use an aluminum style which eliminates the need for a copper crush washer as the aluminum is softer ( malleable) and forms against the mating component.

Which hose fitting style to use in your situation of collected "stuff"?
Examine your components and determine if the majority has flare or o-ring connections. Or, ask the host make custom barrier hoses for you.
Don't forget to flush out the evap (TEV removed) and condensers, inspect the compressor, add a new drier, low-high pressure switch, and add refrigerant oil.

PS. whatcha got so far is very marginal for cooling in NV

The Mr. Ice Project

[wwest]

Originally Posted by quattrorunner

I have a car with no ac but have some parts from a 87 930. I have a front condenser, evaporator, and nipendenso compressor. I'm getting a belly condenser with unknown fittings and pro cooler with adapters.
Question is if I bought the barrier hoses from our host, would I be better off with flare fittings or o ring fitting hose set? Thanks.
I realize I'll have some hoses ill need to add with this setup.

The ProCooler works ONLY if you have EXCESS refrigerant cooling capacity exiting the evaporator outflow stream. Quite CLEARLY that is NOT likely to be the case during the initial cabin cooldown period.

I would suggest that you try some aftermarket vendor's condensor/fan combination rather than bothering with the belly condensor or even the front lip condensor. In my opinion what is most needed for improving the factory A/C is a method for condensing the refrigerant even with the car moving slowly, or not at all, and/or with engine mostly at or near idle.

That was quite clearly Porsche intent in that they added the front lip condensor and fan when the original design proved to be highly inadequate. The problem is, was, that the fans available of the day were horribly inefficient and so the front blower proved to be virtually worthless.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by billybek

As long as you have the ability to reject that extra heat that you added to the suction line while sub cooling the liquid refrigerant you should be OK.
Increasing superheat to the compressor does undeniably increase the specific volume of the refrigerant, decrease the pumping mass flow rate of the compressor, raise compressor operating temperatures and increase discharge superheat.
As mentioned, it isn't magic and it can work but there are others who believe that if the condensers are sized properly they are unnecessary.
Just a viewpoint from a regular poster here.
A word about: Subcoolers or Liquid-Suction Heat Exchangers.
Over the years we have received many inquires regarding "subcoolers". In simple terms, with respect to air conditioning, a subcooler attempts to use the residual cool refrigerant gas exiting the evaporator to further cool down the liquid refrigerant before it enters the expansion valve; a colder liquid refrigerant in many cases can yield colder vent temperatures. In theory this sounds great however in application subcoolers sometimes work and sometimes do not work, and here is why:
1) "For any fluid and system, a subcooler or liquid-line/suction-line heat exchanger (LLSL-HX) increases temperatures at the compressor inlet and outlet which is a shortcoming." (reference P.A. Domanski and D.A. Didion; J.P. Doyle, Evaluation of liquid line/suction line heat exchange in the refrigeration cycle, March 1994).
2) "Under closer evaluation, liquid-suction heat exchangers increase the temperature and reduce the pressure of the refrigerant entering the compressor causing a decrease in the refrigerant density and compressor volumetric efficiency". (reference - S. A. Klein, D. T. Reindl, and K. Brownell, Refrigeration System Performance using Liquid-Suction Heat Exchangers Published in the International Journal of Refrigeration, Vol. 23, Part 8, pp. 588-596 (2000).
3) In simple terms you could say the subcooler is (initially) stealing energy from one end of the system and trying to move it elsewhere; we kinda think of it as a cat chasing its tail. And, heat is a major killer of compressors, and increases in system pressures are what we are attempting to prevent.
4) One benefit of a subcooler is its ability to help reduce unwanted liquids from entering the compressor and causing potential damage. However, all Porsche's produced to date utilize an expansion valve type system and seldom if ever have issues with liquids entering the compressor, hence a useless application of the device.
5) You have to ask yourself, "If subcoolers are such a great idea (if they did work in automotive applications) why doesn't every BMW, Chrysler, Chevy, Ford, GM, or Mercedes have one! They are not expensive to make, you can put one together for under $100.00.
From the Griffiths webpage.
I am not arguing that you shouldn't use a pro cooler, some have very good success using one.

...

[quattrorunner]

I understand my setup I'm describing is not optimal. And in retrospect, I guess I will probably wait till I have an assembled system that will be effective to add hoses, once I'm done building things up rather than add things like more condensers after it's running and charged. I thibk I'm getting ahead of myself with the questions of hose fittings but I don't understand the diffrence between the two yet. I'm trying to learn more before I just order. I had my card in hand last week when I was put on ice about my questions and needs. I do things my way and it always works out. Maybe not with AC.
My intent is to start adding and building my system on a rolling project. Perhaps this isn't a good idea with this type of project. In the end, I want to have a front mount condenser installed as a front mount oilcooler style install, a belly condenser, and maybe even a inside fender condenser with a fan. I don't really have the space for the rear condenser as I have a carrera tail and intercooler and there really isn't the room needed(would be nice with the fan sucking air through). I think in the end, I'll have a nice setup that cools well enough if not great. I've been driving this car for three summers in Vegas so anything will be better than that eh?

[wwest]

Even notice how HOT the roadway pavement, asphalt especially, gets on a LV sunny day...?

All that radient HEAT goes right into the belly condensor and the front lip condensor regardless of speed. The only thing alleviating all that radient HEAT is ro adspeed airflow.

So 2 (radient heating) + 2 (roadspeed airflow) might well =ZERO

I think in your case I would vote for TWO fender mounted condensor/fan systems and drop the front lip and the belly condensor idea altogether.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by quattrorunner

I understand my setup I'm describing is not optimal. And in retrospect, I guess I will probably wait till I have an assembled system that will be effective to add hoses, once I'm done building things up rather than add things like more condensers after it's running and charged. I thibk I'm getting ahead of myself with the questions of hose fittings but I don't understand the diffrence between the two yet. I'm trying to learn more before I just order. I had my card in hand last week when I was put on ice about my questions and needs. I do things my way and it always works out. Maybe not with AC.
My intent is to start adding and building my system on a rolling project. Perhaps this isn't a good idea with this type of project. In the end, I want to have a front mount condenser installed as a front mount oilcooler style install, a belly condenser, and maybe even a inside fender condenser with a fan. I don't really have the space for the rear condenser as I have a carrera tail and intercooler and there really isn't the room needed(would be nice with the fan sucking air through). I think in the end, I'll have a nice setup that cools well enough if not great. I've been driving this car for three summers in Vegas so anything will be better than that eh?

Didn't the factory ship Turbo cars with the rear lid condensor/IC/spoiler as in your configuration??

[quattrorunner]

Originally Posted by wwest

Didn't the factory ship Turbo cars with the rear lid condensor/IC/spoiler as in your configuration??

I don't use the turbo tail.

My carrera tail has been notched for intercooling but there is justy not as much room for the condenser on the other side.
I know the radiant heat from the road would be an issue........
but that same air is not that much cooler 12 inches off the ground where all the otrher condensers get their airflow. It's hot everywhere here.

[wwest]

Then changing "tails" might be a good place to start...

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by quattrorunner

I don't use the turbo tail.

My carrera tail has been notched for intercooling but there is justy not as much room for the condenser on the other side.
I know the radiant heat from the road would be an issue........
but that same air is not that much cooler 12 inches off the ground where all the otrher condensers get their airflow. It's hot everywhere here.

Call Griff and talk to him about your goals. It looks like you have a special case here, and it might be best to talk to him about what you can do about it.

I agree with you - doing this project piecemeal is not the best choice.

Luckily, since you hav no engine decklid condenser, our local "AC expert" can't convince you to add a couple of cheesy fans.

[quattrorunner]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Call Griff and talk to him about your goals. It looks like you have a special case here, and it might be best to talk to him about what you can do about it.

I agree with you - doing this project piecemeal is not the best choice.

Luckily, since you hav no engine decklid condenser, our local "AC expert" can't convince you to add a couple of cheesy fans.

I'm shocked he didn't suggest fans onthe belly condenser.
I'm trying to save money for a g50 conversion as I make too much power for the 915 (blew one up already) so Im kinda robbing glen to save for Shiela.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Call Griff and talk to him about your goals. It looks like you have a special case here, and it might be best to talk to him about what you can do about it.

I agree with you - doing this project piecemeal is not the best choice.

Luckily, since you hav no engine decklid condenser, our local "AC expert" can't convince you to add a couple of cheesy fans.

"...add a couple of cheesy fans.."

Yes, say like the ones you will find on EVERY 996 & 997, and for the very same purpose, yet.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by quattrorunner

I'm shocked he didn't suggest fans onthe belly condenser.

LOL, the mental image is priceless.

Yeah, that's really the problem with AC stuff. You can buy the bits piecemeal, but installing them that way will lead to an over-budget situation in a hurry.

[quattrorunner]

BTW the front condenser from the 87 930 has flare fittings! Thinking of getting bulk barrier hose and fittings and making it all up.

[quattrorunner]

And I'm also thinking of gettting a 930 tailbase. Thats for wwest though I hate to say it.

[quattrorunner]

What size hose? Looks like #6 #8 #10 and #12
I'd guess #8 but I don't know. Are all the fittings the same size across the range?

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by quattrorunner

BTW the front condenser from the 87 930 has flare fittings! Thinking of getting bulk barrier hose and fittings and making it all up.

No. 1983 (euro) and later year 930 are o-ring.
If your 87 has flare, it is not from the factory.

[JAR0023]

Since you don't look to be afraid of modifications, look into using a 964/993 condenser in the driver's fender. Several threads here were this has been done successfully.

My mostly stock '86 damn near blows ice cubes with ES12A. I'm content for now. If I ever tear into an upgrade I'll look seriously at the 964 condenser. I like the idea of all the weight and heat being up front. -J

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by quattrorunner

I'm trying to save money for a g50 conversion

California Motorsports - Porsche transmissions, transaxles, gears, differentials, parts, service, manufacturing

[stevie 77 930]

Brandon,

PM sent.

Steve