Izzy's C4 PPI tale of woe

[Big Dave 928]

Last week I posted a shot and description of a really nice looking gray and tan '90 Targa, 51K/original owner that I test drove and had a PPI done.

Let this be a lesson to anyone considering any P-car without a PPI.

This C4 looked really clean and well cared for and the owner seemed like a really nice guy, so I thought that the PPI would just be a formality.

I took the car to Sport ******** in San Francisco for the PPI. Thanks to Jon Seigel for the recommendation--it was my first time at Sport ******** and it seems like a very good shop.

The owner dropped the car off at 1 PM and by 1:45 Sport ******** called me on my cell and gave me the bad news.

I'll back up here and tell you the various things the owner had told me about the car prior to the PPI.

When I asked the owner if the car had any oil leaks, he said it leaked a little oil, but it really hadn't been a problem. Sport ******** took the engine pan off and found oil everywhere. This was definately one 964 with a major oil leak. They said it was all over the exhaust and was surprised it had caused any fires and or excessive smoke.

When I asked the owner if the clutch was new, he told me it was, and then told me that he had valet parked the car not long ago (3000 miles) and that the valet boys had roasted the clutch. Sport ******** told me that not only did the new clutch smell burned, but that after going back through the car records he had discovered that another clutch had been put in the car at 20K. I checked to see if it was for a flywheel upgrade and it wasn't. The guy burned up the clutch in 20K, and then put another one in at 48K for a total of 3 clutches in 51K! Ouch!

When I asked the owner if he had any other problems with the car, he basically said no. Sport ******** fould a leak at the oil cooler, bad transmission output and shifter seals, bad front diff input and right axle seals and this was just the stuff he found in the first hour before he called me and asked if I wanted to continue the PPI. After going back through the records again, I found all those seal problems had been noted on previous records going back at least 10K. Sport ******** speculated that the last clutch job may have botched up the seals when it all went back together.

I called the owner and told him I was going to pass because of the biggest problem--the oil leak. I asked him if he was aware that this was a $6-$8K fix for this car and his response was "I think the car is priced very fairly and that's my price for the car."

OK! Well, what can I say? Good luck, sir! You'll need it!

The distributor wasn't vented and the records did not cover the first 3 years of the car. The list goes on.

Moral of the story: things are not as they seem.

By the way, I hate to even bring this up, but did I mention that this guy is a lawyer?

Izzy

PS: Sport ******** told me that the majority of the leaking 964s that they see still have the engine pan attached. They, and I wondered if there's a connection...

[nostatic]

There is a reason that '90 cars tend to be inexpensive. From what I've read it is a good idea to remove the bottom pan anyway, as it tends to hinder cooling of the engine.

PPIs aren't perfect, but your case is a great indication of why they are money well spent. I remember looking at a very clean car back about a year ago. The owner was a great guy, the car appeared to be well taken care of, there were records, etc. I ended up lagging and someone else got a PPI and ended up buying the car. Despite the appearances, the PPI found about $4K worth of work that needed to be done...various oil leaks, leaking AC condenser, etc. Not the end of the world, but makes a big difference when it comes time to talk price.

[john_colasante]

I'd love to find one of these otherwise-good-condition leaky C2 coupes priced at under $15K. Seems like an easy DIY fixer for one inclined to reseal the engine.

[speeder]

Izzy, Sounds like you got a very competent PPI from someone who really knew where to look for the buried bodies on a 964. Sorry to hear that car did not measure up, it was a beauty, but better to find out in advance. Every book I've ever read suggests removing that engine cover on bottom for better cooling. WTF was Porsche thinking with that thing? They were not aware of chronic overheating/leaking/valve guide wear problems on their air cooled cars???

FWIW, a leaky 964 COULD be a good deal if otherwise nice car and cheap, 3.6 costs no more than any other 911 motor to rebuild. (Still not cheap, I know, but I did not know this till recently).

[Jim Sims]

I believe the cover under the engine was put in place to allow the car to pass noise emission regulations. Jim

[ChrisBennet]

Before everyone goes misty eyed over the thought of a "cheap" 964 with a few oil leaks you might want to get a little more info.

"The pistons and cylinders must be replaced, and the cylinder heads must be machined to accomodate the new cylinder design, as well as an added head gasket." -Peter Zimmerman, The Used 911 Story"

[Bill Douglas]

Hi Jim, Roland did a posting about 6 months ago and said the cover was to control the cool down of the engine. It sounds a bit odd, but I think the logic was the bottm of the cylinders cool quicker that the top. Bill '79SC

[john_colasante]

The pistons and cylinders don't need to be replaced. There are machine shops that know how to do the machining to circumvent their replacement by adding the "935 style" head gasket. Apparently it's about $600-$700 worth of work which includes a valve job. Not bad.

[EDIT] For clarification this is just the cost of the machine work on the heads, not the cost of the total job to fix the leaking. [/EDIT]

The replacement fix is the Porsche official fix.

Pete Zimmerman, eat your heart out.

[nostatic]

I seem to recall reading that the cover was to cut down on noise and increase aerodynamics. Some have opined that it is partially responsible for the engine problems on the early 964s (ie a modern day thermal reactor miscue). The wrenches I've talked to have all recommended yanking it.

[cegerer]

" .... So Porsche finally solved the age-old problem of the leaky 911 engine, and simply installed a drip pan. "

Now there's an explanation that actually makes sense! Of course, uniform cylinder cooling, aerodynamics, and noise supression sound so much better .....

"If there was one that would fit my car, I'd retrofit one of the bastards, and have often thought of trying to make a 964 one fit. "

-- Curt