Oh boy, another controversial question - should you have a 5/6 point harness without a roll bar/cage? Obviously, the best solution is to have a roll bar or cage - however, many DE participants do not - so the question becomes, are you more likely to hit something and need to be restrained in your seat, or are you more likely to roll your car and also be able to duck at the right time? Personally, until I get a roll bar, I am still using a 6-point harness. What do others feel about this?

harnesses? all i have are my stock seat belts. is this not going to be good enough?

mike: i haven't got my paperwork back yet. i just sent the stuff of the other day...

Stock belts are fine and typically allowed in the novice / slower DE classes. However, if you really get into DE or autocross, a 6-point harness and a race / sport seat will hold you much better, and in my opinion will be safer. But again, you can learn a lot about driving and your car and have a lot of fun with a totally stock Porsche.

Ducking
 

Watch this:

http://www.vintagebus.com/gallery/movie/rollover.mpg

Now you tell me: between when the Subaru Legacy begins to get sideways in the uphill at Lime Rock, and when the driver shouts [Expletive !] when the front of the roof caves in, how much presence of mind would you have to duck out of the way? Considering that he's upside down, and that the centrifugal force from the rolling car tends to throw head and helmet toward the ceiling, I submit, probably not much ducking will be happening.

Also, and this one's for you Adam, when you secure yourself into the seat with only a 3-point factory belt, the procedure is to put the seat about four inches aft of where you normally drive, grab the belt with your thumb and yank on it, to lock the inertia reel, then move the seat forward until the belt is tight, and I mean really tight, against your chest. You are then optimally belted up for track driving, but will still probably have to brace yourself against the dead pedal, the steering wheel, or the door panel. With the belt that tight, you can't move a whole heck of a lot. A harness setup will hold you better in the seat and allow you to concentrate on driving v. holding yourself upright.

But there really is a safety tradeoff with the harness bar and 5- or 6-point setup vs. a roll bar, and it's not what you might think. If you just put in the harness bar, then the harnesses will pull at the correct angle, but if you don't install a racing seat with slots for the belts, and are using something like the factory high-back seat- then they will tend to pull down off your shoulders in an impact- putting a lot of stress on the sternum and collarbone. If you have this setup, consider using a "sternum strap" which goes between the shoulder belts and will hold them together in an impact. Are you more likely to experience severe injury in a frontal collision or a rollover? There are so many variables that it's useless to speculate on the relative trauma of a head injury caused by the roof caving in on your helmet v. the injuries of submarining beneath the factory belt. The really scary thing is backing it in, which is a common problem with the 911, and the belts don't help much there.

I'll tell you what I did to my Carrera after I got serious about DE: I bought a roll bar from DAS, had it painted and bolted it in.

http://www.das-sport.com/data/l911bar.html

This is an extremely high quality part that I recommend without hesitation. If you compare the price to the B-K "Harness truss" it's only a couple hundred more. On the DAS site they have a photo of a Carrera with the bar, that had the roof cave in:

http://www.das-sport.com/data/rollcage.html

The factory coupe body is pretty strong for a 1963 design but this is no reason to tempt fate.

I've watched that rollover about 100 times and think that he might have run over the apex-- see the way the camera vibrates heavily right before the tail comes around? Shame on him for trying to follow that silver 911. If you back it up you can see how the Porsche just WALKS AWAY from him on No-Name Straight. The uphill is one of the most challenging parts of the track, any my second favorite part of LRP, second only to going under the bridge, which is a good six feet above the track, but I still duck!:D

Adam,

You are fine with factory belts for your upcoming DE. The best piece of safety gear you can bring to the track is your humility. You are there to learn, not to show everyone you're the next Michael Schumacher. Learning the correct line and smooth technique are far more important than speed. So, don't drive faster than you are comfortable. As a green group student, others on the track will be slow and cautious. That's smart. As a beginner, you will make mistakes, so make them small ones by taking excessive speed out of the equation.

My point was this: Don't be tempted to install harnesses unless you are going to go all the way with a roll bar or cage. To respond to John's comments above: I don't believe that one would be consciously ducking in a rollover but the roof may need to push your head out of the way. In factory belts, your whole body can be pushed easily towards the center of the car, therby avoiding head and neck injury. In a five or 6 point harness, it's OK to not be able to move laterally if you can insure that the rollbar will support the roof. This was demonstrated in the DAS information linked above. John is absolutely correct about seats with slots. For this reason, I have racing seats in my car. However, my car is a track car.

When you finish the first day and your left leg is tired from bracing yourself under lateral g loading, you'll know why 5 or 6 points are nice. You can drive more relaxed when you are not having to maintain your seat position with your leg. The harness does that for you.

Again, have a great time. You'll be amazed at how much you'll learn.

By the way, buy lots of Gatorade or other sports drink. I live in North Carolina and have done some hot DE's.

sheesh! i just watched that little video 3 times. man, the LAST thing i want to do is roll or put my car into a wall. that sucks!!!

:eek:

That guy in the video should talk less and drive more. I laughed when I saw that for the first time last year. He sure does think he's Joe Pro Driver until you hear that lovely crunchy sound of the windshield breaking. I think he should invite an instructor back in the car.

well, i am TOTALLY BUMMED now.

just got word this morning that i didn't get accepted to the august drivers ed because there is a shortage of instructors for groups 1 and 2. man, this really sucks! i was so looking forward to this. i guess i have to apply the second they announce these things in order to secure a space... :(

there is a bmwcca drivers school running in september on my birthday, but i'm not sure if i want my first 911 d.e. experience to be with that club. am i wrong in thinking that they are not going to be as 'in tune' with my car as the porsche guys? or does it not really matter too much, since it will be my very 1st one, anyways? thoughts???

Adam,

There is a DE at Carolina Motorsports Park in September. It is a Carolina PCA event. You might try that one. CMP is 14 turns, tight and technical. It's a great place to learn that type of track and there aren't that many like that on PCA calendars. I've done two events there. The track puts a premium on finding the right line. It's next to impossible to do the perfect lap there. I like that!!!
:)

dave, thanks for the tip. i may check that out if it's not too far...

hey, lothar; do you mean october 5-6? i looked at their website and only saw a pca driving school on those dates.

(looks like it's about 5 1/2 hours away) :(

I am doing my first DE (at Lime Rock) in a few weeks. I have the original whale tail that came with my 79sc - is it worth putting it back on? My track experience - I have autocrossed a bit, and done the Skip Barber schools, but certainly am a novice. Will the tail add any noticiable stick? (autocrossing not fast enough and I didn't want to swap out on a regular basis anyway).

Anyone else from this board going to be at Lime Rock on the 23 - 24?

Also - thanks for all the info - I could not have gotten my car to it's present state of running decreptitude without all the help and information here, as well as the speedy emailed responses from knowledgeable people here. It's very appreciated!

This is the first time that I've watched that roll-over (it took about 40 minutes to download:mad: ), and I won't be shy about giving my $0.02 about what caused it.

1) The driver wasn't listening to himself. To be honest he sounded a little nerveous about the track-out of the last right onto "No Name Straight". He had to steer all the way to the edge of the track because of the early apex that he took. Unfortunately he didn't recognize that he was starting to get in over his head. That would have been a good time to back off a little bit and collect his thoughts before the next turn. But instead...

2) Like most new drivers, this one seems very confident giving the car the boot on the straight and then gets in over his head when he gets to the corner. We've all done it and I still do it whenever I drive "Grand Prix Legends". Remember - Slow in / Fast out!!!

2A) In my book the driver misses the apex for the climbing turn by about 10 feet. It looks like he gets it, but I think that is only an illusion because the front end gets within a couple of feet while he is spinning. He get's real nervous at the turn in (rightly so since there is a streem behind the wall there) and starts to turn in early (maybe 10-20 feet) and tentatively, so he lifts off the gas. One visual clue is he can see the right side of the 911, so he is a little inside the 911's line at the entry. Notice how quiet it got just as the rear end comes out. TTO is a problem in almost any car given the right situation. In this case the rear end came out when the weight transitioned forward long before he ever got to the apex. It didn't help that it was transitioning into a climbing turn which caused even more traction to transition to the front end.

3) Ok, now the back end is out and the driver is in deep doo doo. While he does the right thing and steers with the skid, but he never picks up the throttle. It's not sure fire, but picking up the throttle will transition the weight to the back and possibly provide more traction at this moment when its needed.

Counterpoint: I've driven and raced that corner a number of times. What would I have done differently?

1) Do any slowing down in a straight line on no-name straight. Depending on the car and the conditions, I usually start the day with light braking at the end of no name straight before turning in on a balanced throttle before transitioning to full throttle at the apex.

2) As my speed and confidence goes up, I'll replace the braking with a lift, still in a straight line prior to turn-in. In full race mode I might do just a confidence lift or a brief brush of the brakes with my left foot to help to settle the car for turn-in since generally I'm still accelerating pretty hard at the end of "No Name Straight".

3) No matter what, I want to be at full throttle by the apex and pointed straight up the hill when I crest. I'm a little bit of a chicken and don't track fully out by the crest in case the rear end steps out at the crest. So I'm usually taking a slightly late apex at this corner to leave myself some room at the exit.

In a well balanced formula car (especially one with downforce) this turn can be taken almost flat out. For some reason, I often get a sense of corner entry understeer on this corner which seems a little scary. The thing to remember is that the compression at the bottom of the hill will often catch any understeer which means that the corner can often be taken faster then you would think. The secret is confidence.

What are other driver's experiences at that corner?

PS: I've made a similar mistake with similar results in an S2000 at a drivers school at NHIS. The one thing that I learned was that when racing, it is important to do things decisively. I spun and crashed because I was to tentative at a cresting corner. It is important to be decisive and give the car a chance to settle rather then be tippy toeing through a corner which leaves the car all on edge. Lessons learned...

Adam,

Yes, October 5,6 is the fall DE for the Carolina Region. Sorry, I got my months mixed up. That's good news considering that my car will not be ready for September. Check out the Carolina PCA web site at:

http://www.carolinas-pca.com/

I'm not sure if they have room in that group. THe green group was pretty crowded last time i did an event there. Max is 24 I think.

lothar, according to the registrar yesterday, there was still room. i'm going to keep my fingers crossed and send out my app. tomorrow!

This thread is packed with great advice, so I'll only make two observations. Although autocrossing is hard on tires with regards to flat spots, my experience even with novices is that you will get more time out of a set of tires there as you will at the track. The heat cycle the tires experience is not as deep at an autocross, and of course the continual time on course is a fraction of what you get at the track. The only exception would be an experienced dual driver car at a national autocross course on concrete. Second, after seeing a 996 being towed away from the track with it's top at the level of the doors and the stock driver's seat bent, I would not wear a 5 point belt without a roll bar or preferably cage in the car. The driver walked away only because he was wearing only the stock belt and his body could move away from the roof. He didn't duck, he was pushed to the floor. I put a cage off on my track car until the day I saw this. I guess the best advice is make sure both you and your car are ready for the track. Do not carry any anger or ego onto the track - use your head, stay out of trouble and take a break if traffic is holding you up or you feel tired. Have fun!

Randy;
Thanks, you helped me to solidify some thoughts which been tossing around in my head. I've discussed safety aspects with PCAer's and others and I guess I always wind up sounding like a zealot when it comes to Safety.

PCA'er - Well John, are you going to do xyz DE event next month.

John - No, I have to get my stuff in order. My helmet has an old SA85 rating, my car doesn't have a roll cage nor 6 point safety belts. My experience with the SCCA is that you never go on-track without these items.

PCA'er - John, this is (You name the driving club), not the SCCA. You don't need that stuff. You don't even need an FIA approved drivers suit. They'd like you to use the latest SA rated helmet, but it's not required. You don't need a cage, and as long as the passenger has the same type of belts as the driver, your in. Of course they do need to be in good condition. This is why it is so much cheaper to drive with us then the SCCA. You also get a lot more track time.

John - uhhh - I don't know. (wonders off to avoid further discussion)

Post conversation reflection:
Let's see...

1)...in most track events you're driving almost as fast as in an SCCA showroom stock or IT event. I can say for a fact that the driver of the above roll-over was. OK, your top speed is 5 mph less and you're at 85% rather then 95%+. But the difference in energy between 110 and 105 MPH is how much? As a result a full cage is not required for DE events while it is for ITD or SSC (The slowest SCCA classes) events? Are the cars less likely to roll or crash? Why?

2) A poorly fitted loaner helmet is OK rather then a custom fitted SA2000 helmet because I'm less likely to impact my head on anything. Especially given the cage issue in item 1. Now I'm getting confused.

3) In a roll-over or head-on impact, the stock seat belts will be enough rather then the increased surface area and restraint of a 6 point set. Furthermore, without a cage, it's better to be thrown around the cockpit like a rag doll in stock belts then firmly restrainted. I'm getting really confused :confused: . I've hit the rail at the 'Glen at an estimated 30 MPH in a FF and believe me, I had no control of my limbs until I came to a complete stop. And then most of my limbs were shaking a little bit despite my efforts to stop them.

4) The fact that the costs are less and the track time greater makes it all OK? If the average driver has x probability of having an accident per mile travelled at a speed event, then the probability of this accident happening at any particular event is greater at non-SCCA events given the increased track time. This doesn't even take into account the stricter licensing requirements of SCCA club racing and the hopefully increased experience levels that result.

I know that there are a lot of people who disagree with me on this. But I guess at the end of the day, when the "big moment" arrives (we all have them), I'd feel better knowing that I took every possible opportunity to ensure my return home to my wife and kids at the expense of a little track time.

Will you see me at any PCA or other DE's this year? Probably not since I don't have my cage, belts and helmet up to spec. But I will do these events when my car and driver are all equipped per the SCCA GCR, not the DE event's minimum standards. I really would like the track time, but I can't risk my families future for a few extra kicks.

Ok - Fire away! http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat5.gif

I did my first DE at Watkins Glen last weekend. WHAT A BLAST!! Anyway, being in the green group you are OK with the stock seat belts. My region, Riesentoter, SE PA, reguires a tech inspection by an authorized mechanic. We also have tech sessions 2 Saturdays before the event, where for $10 an authorized person techs your car at a sponsoring dealer. A good commoraderie thing too. My advise? Do as your driving instructor will tell you - go slow and learn the track. After a few stints at a reasonable speed, learning the line, apexes, track outs, etc., you will feel slowly more comfortable at higher speeds. This was my first DE so I did not begin to "let it out" until the second session of my second day. By then the track was second nature to me. One more thing - if they want to pass you, let them past, and slow down a bit while doing so. There are plenty of green group drivers out there who are not as green as first time newbies. Have fun, don't bend it.

There is variation in the required safety equipment depending on the club and even the region hosting DE events. However, the one thing that all have in common is that the requirements are minimums. These cover the club against claims of negligence while operating these events.

You, as an individual of free will, are free to exceed those minimum requirements as you see fit. I have chosen not to participate in another DE until I have a full cage and 5 pt. harnesses for my instructor and me. I choose to wear a fire retardant suit, gloves and shoes regardless of how unbearably hot a day it might be. I choose to have a proper fire extinguisher in my car. These are things that make me feel safer and I'm backed up by inumerable racing organizations and sanctioning bodies.

I chose to adopt these items because after a few DEs, as I progressed along my learning curve, my speed makes the consequences of a mistake or mechanical failure more threatening.

Do your own research and conduct your own risk assessment. As stated in my previous post, the most important thing I bring to the track is a humble approach. That helps prevent catastrophic mistakes and the equipment minimizes the risk if it happens anyway. Don't kid yourself, this stuff is dangerous. But, so is most everything else you do. Do what you can to mitigate risk but remember, you can't eliminate it completely.

For what it's worth,