Engine Options in 964 Singer inspired

[breljohn]

Hi guys!
I finally found the 964 of my dreams!
My idea (shocker) is to build something inspired by Singer (retro look, modern underpinnings)

I was debating about the engine and were considering these options:
- Ship the current engine to Cosworth and let them do their magic
- Transplant a more modern powerplant.

Any advice or suggestions?

Noob questions for sure but:
- Would a 997 GT3 engine and PDK fit?
- How complicated or expensive is to source an engine like that?
- What else should I consider?

Thanks a lot guys!
John

[Dave Colangelo]

Like anything the sky is the limit with these projects but the reality is that your bank account is the limit. People have put all kinds of new engines in all kinds of older 911 chassis but some will require cutting into the body work. As per your questions...

I would avoid a PDK/997 engine as the electrics will be nothing short of a nightmare, and then some. Not to mention I would have no idea how to get one of these shy of buying a wreck or used car. With the 964 motor (keeping it as is) all you will have to deal with is an ECU and some other smaller electrical bits assuming its a manual and not a tip car. If you go to carbs you will eliminate the ECU all together but need something like an MSD box to control the spark. The 964 engine has plenty of room to make more power and there is no need to stick the latest and greatest engine in there as you will be able to get plenty out of the 964 motor if its done by the right people. Thus my vote is ship it to Cosworth.

I will go against what some people may say here but... If you want a long hood, buy a long hood... Backdating, forward dating, side dating, up dating, down dating, all seams to be a fad in some capacity. I will beg you to not ruin a perfectly good 911 for the sake of making it look like another perfectly good 911 out there somewhere. For the cost of the conversion you could buy a real long hood with a hot rod motor. But its your car and you can do as you please with it so have at it.

Regards
Dave

[Laneco]

One significant consideration is that your 964 is air cooled and a 997 is water cooled which will mean significant changes to the car for the cooling system. If money is not an object, and you do not mind that, then by all means proceed in that direction. That said, I would suggest keeping the 964 air cooled and letting your builder work their magic.

If you look at the price of the conversion, plus the cost of the GT3 engine itself, you would be able to buy an admirable amount of power from your air cooled engine (e.g. turbo, etc). Ship to Cosworth (or other) and let the magic begin!

angela

[RSTarga]

++ on both above comments. Don't backdate the last real 911, you'll be sorry some day.
You can get plenty of power out of that engine.

[wayner]

It's a good thing that Dave was able to get me some critical pieces for my RSR project or my 73 wouldn't look like a 73 anymore.

It had gone through a couple of fad date changes throughout its life before returning to long hood.

I vote keep the 964 and instead look at making it a period correct turbo look if anything

Deeper wheels transform the looks of a 964

[blucille]

All valid points so far....no reason why you can't go with a 3.8l varioram from a 993

[Eli W]

Yup, cutting these cars up has to be a passion bordering on mania and at the end of the day keeping them in one piece pays off.

[breljohn]

I should have mentioned that the car is a daily driver and that's why I wanted a more modern car (ABS, real A/C...) and spends half of its life at the track (well, that's what I was doing with the E92 M3 that the Porsche is replacing)

Thanks for the advice on the look of the car but I was wondering about the engine :-)

Besides Cosworth, any other names I should consider? Maybe East coast...

Thanks!!

[GH85Carrera]

You would be money ahead getting a newer 911 and doing the bodywork to make it look like an air-cooled car.

Or whip out the checkbook and send it to RUF and tell them what you want.

[breljohn]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

You would be money ahead getting a newer 911 and doing the bodywork to make it look like an air-cooled car.

Or whip out the checkbook and send it to RUF and tell them what you want.

I should give more info. I do not want a more modern car as they tend to be heavier. The 1989 964 is the only car I'm interested in. I just want to make the most of it. I already have the car and I'm just looking for engine advice and how feasible all this is.

Thanks!

[911pcars]

Your dreams are only limited by your budget. What is it? $5 or $100 grand? Do you have the skills and/or the bank account? Makes a difference. Establish a mite smaller ballpark.

Sherwood

[Dave Colangelo]

Originally Posted by breljohn

I should give more info. I do not want a more modern car as they tend to be heavier. The 1989 964 is the only car I'm interested in. I just want to make the most of it. I already have the car and I'm just looking for engine advice and how feasible all this is.

Thanks!

If you are trying to get the most out of the engine you can,
Chip it (easy power)
new exhaust
new intake
High compression pistons etc.
Regrind the cams
Turbo it...
Bore it out to a bigger engine
Press harder on the gas
Stay in a lower gear longer

In terms of feasible I would say moving to a 997/PDK is more or less out of the question. you would have to strip the car down to the chassis route the water system through it as well as the electronics and then make it all work. You may be able to get a 993 engine in there im not sure on size but if I were a betting man it could be done. A 996 engine would be the same issue as a 997 engine and possibly have an IMS bearing issue. When it comes to mods for a price you can get way more HP than you will ever need out of the engine. If you are using the car as a DD I would go with some simple tasteful mods at first like a chip and a new exhaust.

Regards
Dave

[darrin]

Since it looks like you're new to the 911 world, my advice would be to get to know your 964 first and get it "dialed in" performance-wise and identify what you see as deficiencies before you start down the modification road.

While you could rebuild your 3.6 to 993 specs or higher, a 964 3.6 already has pretty nice performance as-is.

[darrin]

Originally Posted by darrin

Since it looks like you're new to the 911 world, my advice would be to get to know your 964 first and get it "dialed in" performance-wise and identify what you see as deficiencies before you start down the modification road.

While you could rebuild your 3.6 to 993 specs or higher, a 964 3.6 already has pretty nice performance as-is.

Also, since this is your DD, it's important that you consider compliance with your local emissions requirements when contemplating upgrades (also be careful with limiting the scope of your buyer pool in this regard -- eliminating cats, for example, would prevent this car from being registered in a variety of states without first re-installing emissions equipment)

[Trackrash]

I know two guys who own RS Americas. Very nice looking car. A few mods to a 964 and that is a direction you could aim for.

One of my friends had his motor build to 3.8 RS standards and had turbo brakes. I rode with him at a DE and he could stay up with GT3s on that track. The car was street driven. 964s are a great platform for a dual purpose car.

[breljohn]

Originally Posted by darrin

Also, since this is your DD, it's important that you consider compliance with your local emissions requirements when contemplating upgrades (also be careful with limiting the scope of your buyer pool in this regard -- eliminating cats, for example, would prevent this car from being registered in a variety of states without first re-installing emissions equipment)

My 3rd 911 actually. Restored a 930 Turbo to stock.
Used to own a 997C4S cab.

I plan on keeping this car and don't care much about the resale value or anything.
I would like to build exactly what I want.

No inspection where I live :-)

Finally, I do not want a turbo engine, I want a high revving one (loved my M3 in that department).

Also, I plan on making the car a bit lighter, should help in terms of performance...

[breljohn]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

I know two guys who own RS Americas. Very nice looking car. A few mods to a 964 and that is a direction you could aim for.

One of my friends had his motor build to 3.8 RS standards and had turbo brakes. I rode with him at a DE and he could stay up with GT3s on that track. The car was street driven. 964s are a great platform for a dual purpose car.

Exactly why I bought one and plan on keeping it :-)

[metalracer]

Send the motor to Rothsport in Washington, let them put on their ITBs under a GT3 plenum, bump it to 3.8, ditch the Motronic and go MoTec.......talk to them about your usage goals and they'll dial-in exactly what you want! Then, get a 6-spd and re-gear it so all 6 gears are useful.

[Canada Kev]

Regarding Rothsport, they are the folks responsible for the induction system on the Cosworth engines, as well. Jeff and crew are great to work with.

[Vandit]

These guys are currently building a GT3-powered 964. Scroll down far enough on their page and you'll see pics of the current progress of the build.
https://www.facebook.com/BergmanAutowerks


This rally team runs a 3.4l water-cooled motor in their 964.
https://www.facebook.com/TeamKleinjan?ref=br_tf