Carrera VS 964 C4

[David McLaughlin]

While I'm still some time away from making a purchase, I'd like to be as informed as possible. I been through the gamut as far as my likes and dislikes are concerned, from 928s, 968s, SCs and now this. I have determined that I won't be happy till I get a 911 so why bother with any other.

I started looking at the SC and early Carrera models, then determined I would rather have a G50, so I started on the '87-'89 cars. Upon looking at the rennlist classified, ebay, etc, I noticed that the 964 models were pretty cheap in comparison. I like the idea of the C4 for the New England winters. This "new" car will be a daily driver through ALL weather. It must be reliable and not bankrupt me with its up keep. My mechanic says that the Carrera is a the better deal and that the 964 (particularly C4) is a money pit. I have heard of the oil leak issues and something about a clutch problem, but figure most of it is internet hype. no mater which car I get, it'll be equipped with snow tires for the winter and be mostly maintained by a dealer or independent repair facility. I have all I can do to keep my 914/6 project rolling along.


I appreciate your input. Now back to my job search.

TIA,

[nostatic]

Check this site for lots of 964 info:

http://www.porsche964.co.uk/

For snow, it seems like a C4 would be a good choice. I wouldn't know though, as snow is something people got arrested for in the 80's here in LA. Here's a short opinion list on the two cars:

G50 Carrera:
cheaper to maintain (if you get a good one)
more visceral
valve guides somewhat of a concern

964
more comfy (power steering/brakes)
more hp
more costly to maintain
early ones had oil leaks, bad flywheels, and distributor belt problems (see the above site for details).
better hvac

The 964s have really dropped in price lately, and if you find a good one, they are a pretty attractive deal. For a daily driver in the snow, a C4 seems like a fun choice (but I'll defer to those that have actually done it). A 3.2 will probably get you a bit more "enthusiast appeal", but for a driver, that shouldn't matter much. The maintenance difference could be significant, but again, it really just depends on finding a *good* example, no matter what year it is.

[WydRyd]

I'm not sure about other parts of the world, but down-under, the '89 Carrera's are demanding more than the '89 964's and sometimes even the 90 and 91 models! Especially the turbo-look Carrera's!

It comes down to personal preference as well, so drive both and see which one you like the best in terms of drivability, looks and of course, future maintenance has a big part to play in the scheme of things.

A 4WD 964 would be nice in your part of the world

Good luck!

[89911]

My advice would to get in both and drive, drive, drive. Saying that a 911 would make a good snow car should steer you away. What high performance cars make good snow cars? Vette's Ferrari's?? While I have never driven a Carrera4, the reviews I have read state it feels like a front wheel drive car. You can determine that from driving both.

In december last year I drove my Carrera 3,2 in a snowstorm. I made it home without dents, but I'll never ever take the 911 out in a snowstorm again. It went sideways most of the time.

The 964 is more expensive to own, but the 4 wheel drive is better suited for snow.

[wckrause]

What high performance cars make good snow cars?

911's handle quite well in snow and ice, with a good set of snow tires. Your biggest problem for winter driving will not be traction, but will be ground clearance, and the ability to keep your windows free from ice and moisture. I'd pick the 964 for winter driving (C2 or C4) because I hear it has a better heat and A/C system.

[KTL]

If it's going to be a daily driver, the 964 gets the nod from me. Mostly because of the improvements to the non-performance related components like HVAC and radio. Power steering is nice too for daily driving (not that the Carreras are hard to steer). 964 has a little more complexity than the Carreras, but nothing any competent mechanic can't handle.

Most of the "problems" mentioned about the 964 can be avoided (and probably have already been addressed) with a good service history. If you're concerned about the potential future maintenance cost issues, skip on the C4 and get a C2 964? One less set of driven wheels to maintain.

Just as an aside, 4WD isn't much of an improvement in snow w/out good tires. Snow tires are a very good idea. I had Goodyear Eagle GT's on my AWD Mitsu. one winter. That thing was everywhere. Next season I got some Michelin Arctic Alpins and it's now a totally different car. What a difference.

[FRED/LI]

A well maintained 964 will be a joy. It has a 'solid' feel to it and is just as nimble as the earlier cars.
As they are however aging, there will be concerns with items such as the power steering unit's belt and camshaft seal, the distributor belt (which, contrary to some is a DIY for a reasonably skilled owner) and other various seals that will, in time lead to minor oil leaks.
The cylinder head oil leaks were addressed in the later years and would be obvious during a PPI if the condition still exists.
I've had one for over three years as a daily driver and the only problem I've had is a sheared roll pin in the clutch pedal which may have been caused by the sport clutch that replaced the original prior to my purchase. It has a bit more clamping force.
The flywheel problem of the earlier cars should have been addressed by now on most that are still on the road. It should be checked prior to purchase.
And the rear reflector usually turns pink, but all in all, it is a gem of a car that I feel is undervalued for now.

[David McLaughlin]

I guess it all depends on who I talk to. I don't give my mechanic much credit right now anyway (had my car for three month and all he's done is the carberators. Still needs to install moror mounts and fix my trunk hinge).

I feel I can do most of the minor repairs and small restoration of interior, etc. I'm not looking for a real enthousiastic performer as I'm building my 914/6 for that. I want a porsche that will take me to work (where ever that is going to be) and home comfortably and safely. As I said, I was looking for 928s too. Driving like a FWD car isn't a problem as that's all I've owned until I bought the 914. For those nay sayers, you should drive any car in the winter with stock/ summer tires, then drive the same car with snows. You would not believe the differance. I believe that Porsche built these cars to be driven and not garaged. I plan on driving it hard and putting it away wet, just as the good doctor intended.

I really like the look of the car. I have found several sites on the internet and love looking at the pics. I like the older styling, but with the wing (lid?) and bigger bumpers, it's not as dated as the Carrera (which I really like too, BTW).

I'll strt looking at the local classifieds and try to drive a few cars. I hope to buy as soon as I get stabilized in a new job. While I still like driving my VR6 Golf, it's not lasting like I planned. It's paid for and has about 10k on the new motor (gotta love 10/100 warrenty) but the body shows too many flaws for my liking. So, it's either repaint and repair the GTI or buy a Porsche. Yah, like that's a hard choice.

[JonSeigel]

The problem is that everyone generalizes as to "problem" 964s, but most don't have problems. The mid '92s and later have everything taken care of. The early 964s *if not well cared for by the owner* can be big problems. However, early 964s with conscientious owners have vented the distributor and have probably replaced the flywheel (if the clutch has been changed they almost certainly have; if it hasn't been changed, its a negotiation point). The wildcard for early 964s is possible cylinder head leaks. This problem is real but has been greatly exaggerated. Few cars have this problem (but when they do, it's rebuild time). Additionally, for a while Porsche repaired cars with this problem. You need to have a mechanic that really understands 964s (rather than those who just generalize that they are all "problem cars" without further thought) to PPI it. If everything checks out, these cars are great values.

Good luck.

[speeder]

A 964 C4 w/ good winter tires would be an awesome year-round car. (Actually 2 sets of tires/rims, summer and winter). I've driven this model on dry pavement when they were new, it does NOT "drive like a FWD car". It has a "torque split" center differential, biased toward rear.

A major difference, IMO, that no one else has mentioned is the existence of SRS/driver's airbag in the 964. That and AWD would make it a much safer car in the snow and ice. Just get a good one.

[KTL]

Good point about the SRS/Airbag (and ABS) in the 964's. 1990 and newer have airbags. One thing to remember is these are the early generation airbags. Some early airbag systems have been known to be quite dangerous (injurious inflation rates, bag materials that give you rugburn, harmful substances in the "air" that inflate the bag, and so forth) Therefore, although they are a good safety measure and supposedly reduce your insurance premiums, airbags may not always be safer in all instances!

Just my opinion.

[Chuck Moreland]

The two cars are far more different than the minor styling changes would suggest. I would suggest driving a few examples of each and see which one appeals to you.

I spent half my life dealing with Chicago winters, some in a ground-scraping 914. Everytime we had a big snowstorm, 4WD sales would surge. It seemed to me that choosing a car for the 1-2% of days that 4wd would be handy is like the tail wagging the dog.

Granted, I lived in a metropolitan area. If you are in the boonies and snow removal is limited, that is different. My solution would be to buy the 2wd, and pick up a cheap piece of junk for snow days.

[speeder]

Kevin, Point taken on the early airbags, I have heard that the technology has gotten "smarter", but I believe that any airbag is better than none in a catastrophic frontal collision. And on icy two lane roads, (secondary roads), this is how a lot of people die where I come from. (Minnesota and Wisconsin). And by the early 90's I think they were pretty good; MB has had them in all models since '86.

Also, I am not familiar w/ weather in Mass., (how much snow/ice), but in MN. some winters the secondary roads/side streets can be snow and ice covered for months. AWD is not at all frivolous there, and can be kind of fun as well. ABS is great to have, allows you to still steer(somewhat) with foot stomped on brakes in a panic stop situation. I think that a C4 w/ state of art winter tires would be an extremely safe and fun car in winter. My .02.

[KTL]

You're right on about the full-on collisions when it comes to the airbags. Early airbag is better than none at all. It's during the minor fender benders when airbags have been known to do more harm than good. Should clarified that. Sorry!

Here in IL Chicagoland suburbs it's like Chuck said. The roads are only snow-covered for a day or two in the absolute worst conditions. Still, it's nice to have the winter tires when the need arises. If they help you avoid one major disaster, they've paid for themselves and then some.

[JeremyD]

My opinion, the 964's are a great deal and undervauled at this point. Drive both and you will appreciate, as I did the grunt of the 3.6. Have a PPI done by a competent mechanic and someone who knows 964's