There is no need to collect the charts, just get a Porsche repair manual. All the charts are there plus factory troubleshooting and repair procedures.

These charts are copyright protected by Porsche, rather surprised that Pelican allows them to be posted. May as well just post the entire repair manual and be done with it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1192844740.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1499620635.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/962708-drivability-issues-77-cis.html#post9655619
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/372891-need-control-pressure-chart-76-911s.html#post3541867

Another chart

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1508167195.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/973784-wtb-930-warm-up-regulator-2.html

Hi Tim,

thanks for your fantastic description.

I´ve a 911 SC 3,0l, 1982, Euro and had some trouble. If the engine was warm it stoped immediately - no idle. I´ve done the tests and think I find the problem.

My AAR looks closed, but if I pluged the lines of the AAR my idle is perfect.
This seems slightly against the characteristic symptome -what do you think?

Best regards

Michael

I removed the AAR and test it. The restistence was 33 Ohm and it was closed after 6 min.
It was total closed but if I blowed in it was not airtight.

After build into the car the same problem and if I pluged the lines the car runs fine.

What is the different? Must it be airtight?

Michael,

Sorry I have been slow to respond. I've been traveling on business. My advice would be to start a new thread here with all the details. My gut reaction is that there is too little to go on from your initial description and we could guess at a lot of things, but we would just be guessing. The starting point is going to be fuel pressures and very thoroughly checking for vacuum leaks.

Hi Tom,

thanks for your Response.

Here the things I´ve done before:

Problem: begins after winter brake. In warm condition no idle. Engine stops immediately.

- CO / mixture was right before
- System pressure: 4,8 bar
- Cold control pressure: 21 °C, 1,0 bar
- Warm Control pressure: 3,6 bar

- Changing vacuum lines (because really old)
- air leaks (only sight test, if open oil tank - idle falls down)
- Thermo valve: cold closed, after power open
- WUR (-089): 33 Ohm, after opening clean filter, every thing fine

- AAR (0280140201): 33 Ohm, cold open - power after 6 min closed complete, but not airtight.

If I closed the lines to AAR the idle (warm condition) is perfect.
This could means there is a bad scource (circle of AAR) for additional air or the fuel mixture is so lean that minimal air disable the idle.

My question:
Why is the idle perfect after closing lines to AAR (AAR is closed, so only minimal air comes out. Is the idle for air so sensible)?
Could it be the AAV (not checked because ist nearly behind the engine)?
Which part affected the idle in terms of the fuel mixture?

Thanks in advance.

These numbers look good Michael. You do not say what the CO setting is.

If the AAR closes in about 6-10 minutes it is fine. I have tested a couple and none is 100% airtight after closing...

WUR is OK correct for your car and OHM is spot on.
Warm control is perfect.

You did not give us System pressure.

Aside from tracking air leaks please check the routing of the small diameter hoses.
99% of the information on the Web is incorrect for a 82 SC with a 089 WUR.

If I have to venture a guess maybe someone swapped the 2 small vac hoses to the WUR. You can install them in 4 different manners , one of them will cause the engine to stall when warm if the co was set with the vac line incorrectly attached.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1501854620.jpg

Thanks.

The system pressure is 4,8 bar (see above).
I find your picture before in your thread and checked them. All lines are OK on my car.

Damn that sucks...

System pressure is a littel low but within spec.

So my best guess now is that the AAR does not fully close but that should give you high idle not "No idle."

The AAV can also play a role but the symptom is usually a high idle.

My Vacuum test pump... a aquatic tank pump, reckon its around 2-3 PSI, worked great and cost approx $15 USD.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1502002179.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1502002194.jpg

Someone asked for a good graph of the notorius 089 ROW WUR.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1502292109.jpg

WUR-089 cold control fuel chart........
 

Michel,

Thanks for posting. My copy is same as yours except it is faded and not easy to read. Now, I have a good photo copy of the WUR-089 cold control fuel chart.

Tony

Interesting page thanks to all.

Adjustable WUR

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/218814-made-adjustable-wur-step-step-got-pics.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/565010-how-hard-hit-wur-cold-pressure-adjustment-pin.html

That´s a very nice idea, but my WUR works well.

Next week-end I will check my AAV and tell you more.

I didn´t checked my AAV until now. After a short look I see there is nearly no way to remove it without removing the complete k-jetronic. So I switched it to the winter break.

You can also remove and just plug the lines to see if there is any change in how the car runs.

Apologies in advance if this has been covered already -
Can a vacuum test @ distributor be a quick and dirty check for vacuum leaks, or is that in the wrong part of the chain to be valid? Also, what is the target vacuum at idle for an early CIS system? Mine is a '74 with a xxx xxx 004 FD and a xxx xxx 008 WUR.
Thanks!

Adjustable WUR - WCP and CCP

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/656419-building-adjustable-wur-need-starting-point.html#post6544423


Adjusting WUR using washers

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/812826-warmup-regulator-strange-issue-solved.html

WUR servicing links

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/987755-warm-up-regulator-dealer.html

Pop-off Valve aka toilet seat thread

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/976754-pop-off-not-pop-off-4.html

Smoke machine

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/991708-cis-advice-needed-experts-please-help.html#post10001114

Does anyone know the correct impedance readings (cold and hot) for the 0 438 140 008 WUR?
I'm getting a cold reading of 56 ohms.
Thanks.

PM Tony, boyt911sc, I’ll bet he knows.

will do. thanks.

Resistance (Ohms)........
 

Charles,

I don’t know the electrical impedance of 0-438-140-008, but the electrical resistance is 56 Ohms (+/-)1. The electrical heater in your WUR is good.

Tony

Excellent. Many thanks.

Getting prepared to do the pressure test within the next week. Reviewing the directions, it looks like I need to run the fuel pump during the cold and warm pressure tests. Won’t this cause a bunch of fuel to be injected into the cylinders? What’s the best way to clear out that accumulated fuel? Just start it up?

“The next test is the COLD CONTROL PRESSURE test. With the valve on the fuel pressure gauge in the OPEN position (and again with the ignition key in the ON position and the fuel pump running), record the fuel pressure and the ambient temp.”

No.
Unless.
a The fuel plunger is stuck in the FD in the upward position
b the air sensor plate sits too high in the throat of the FD
c the co screw is turned so far to the right that it dribbles fuel even when a and b are ok.

Only a can really bring alot of fuel in the chambers in a short time.

You will hear the injectors squeel if a b or c are the case.

Simply stop the FP and correct a b or c before continuing.

Ah, I get it. I had a fundamental misunderstanding of the fuel system. So the injectors don’t function when the fuel pump is simply ON, the sensor plate has to be lifted as well? That makes total sense and I don’t know why I didn’t realize that sooner. Thanks.

Do post the results here when you get to the bottom of your troubleshooting. It will add to the knowledge base of this valuable technical forum.

Links to the relevant threads.

090 WUR resistance measurements http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1000607-wur-wiring-connector.html#post10092455

Fuel pressure findings http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1001112-cis-experts-please-help-fuel-pressure-test-results.html

Return line checks

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1025675-occasional-cis-problem-2.html#post10513299

Access to edit.........
 

Tim,

Maybe you could request from the moderator/s some help to get access to edit some of your old postings. I have not read this thread for a long time and had a chance to browse it yesterday. Just the first page alone, I found several critical misinformation or misconceptions that you have posted.

You are doing a great job updating the thread. I know you are a voracious reader and search a lot in the Internet. But you can not just use data or information you found in the Internet without further verification. People reading your posts will have a tendency to use and believe it is a fact. We all make mistakes and I commit a lot too.

When you mentioned this idea “CIS for dummies” to me many years ago, I was all in favor of it and even today. If you are not allowed to edit the old posts, maybe you should make an updated version with the “correct or edited” version. Just my two-cents.

Tony

I recently acquired a '78 SC with CIS and after reading this thread, my head is spinning. I wish someone would post simple pictures of each component. Maybe I should buy a book, but I don't know where to start. I know Weber carbs and low pressure systems. My car runs super good, but I pray it never breaks or starts running poorly. What is a "FD?"

I couldn't tell you the different between a WUR and/or an AAR if you gave me a billion dollars cash.

(I was encouraged to ask the dumb questions.)

Are you guys all automotive engineers with degrees from MIT?

Acronyms.......
 

Lawrence,

These are the most common acronyms you will encounter in the CIS discussions in this forum. I copied these acronyms from an old post and pasted here for your perusal. Get some reference book or manual about the K-Jetronic (CIS). There is booklet I highly recommend issued by Bosch (Technical Instruction) and printed by Bentley.

This is the ISBN: 0-8376-0468-0.

Some CIS acronyms:

AAR (auxiliary air valve)
AAV (auxiliary air valve)
AFS (air flow sensor/switch)
CSV (cold start valve)
DV (deceleration valve)
FD (fuel distributor)
FP (fuel pump)
FV (frequency valve)
CCP (cold control pressure)
RP (residual pressure)
SP (system pressure)
TTS thermotime switch)
TV (thermovalve)
WCP (warm control pressure)
WUR (warm up regulator).
Etc.

Tony

This old school CIS/K-Jet training video, along with Tony's acronym list above, will go a long way toward helping you understand this dinosaur-tech injection system.

<iframe width="745" height="559" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/a4fJAfXYxWk" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thank you, I'll buy the book and keep the prayers up for good measure.

Test
 

I followed the CIS test and ended up with following results: interpretation?

Test @6.5C

1982 SC ROW

WUR 32ohms

System Pressure 4.5 bar

Cold Control Pressure 1 bar (note while fuel pump running it was 0, after I turned off the fuel pump I recorded 1 bar which held for 10 seconds or so)

Warm Control Pressure 2.3 bar after 5 minutes

Residual Pressure Test: pressure just fell away after 30 seconds to 0

Thoughts?

I would start a new troubleshooting thread and not bury your data in this thread.

CIS troubleshooting........
 

Spokes7,

As suggested earlier, it would be better to start a different thread than have it here. Anyway, you need to fix your residual fuel pressure first. There are several culprits which I will tell you later. And your WUR is out of spec.

Re-post this to the Technical Forum for more and better responses.

Tony

The Bentley book "Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management" (page 17 or chapter 6) says to disconnect electrical connections for the Control Pressure Regulator CPR (AKA the WUR) and the Auxiliary-Air device. I assume the air device is the AAR. I find no referral to disconnect the electric connection to the AAR in this fine thread.

Is the Disconnect of the AAR wires needed to run fuel pressure tests?