engine removal question

[5495bb]

I'm wondering if it's possible to remove the engine and transmission without removing the engine support bar on an '87 Coupe? Is it possible to drop the power train by simply unbolting the 4 bolts that hold the engine bracket to the support bar? I know that the engine has been out before but now the large bolts at the end of the support bar not coming loose. I'm simply trying to change the engine mounts and am wondering if I'm up against Lock-Tite from the previous engine drop or bolts that are Porsche factory tight with corrosion. Thanks.

[Long Nose]

I just had my engine bracket powder coated in preparation for reassembly, so I have been working on that assembly. From the parts manuals that I have seen, the bracket that mounts the engine cross bar to the engine is year and even model specific. The engine support bar is fairly universal. There may be clearance issues to remove the bolts that attach the engine support bar to the mounting bracket while the engine is still in the car, i.e in my car the muffler may be in the way. If you can remove those bolts, there may be clearance issues when you lower the engine, the fan shroud may contact the bar if you don't keep it fairly level during removal.

Have you tried soaking with a good penetrant to loosen up those nuts? I usually hit stubborn bolts with a little bit of heat from a blow torch (very carefully so as not to damage the paint on the body) I just hit if for a second with heat, then hit with the penetrant, let it soak in. If you have an impact wrench, sometimes that also helps to free up stuck bolts.

Good luck! In my experience getting out stuck and many years old bolts, stripped and rusted, can be the hardest part of the project. I have a whole selection of "easy outs" for working on the Porsche. Have you taken off the bolts that fasten the CV joints on the axel to transmission, those were the worst!!! T

[Sboxin]

IMHO - - The engine needs to move rearward for the transmission selector rod to clear the body - the bar in place might keep this from happening . . . (we have done several engine drops on our race car . . . )

Regards,
Roy T

[john walker's workshop]

No. Sometimes with frozen bolts, the ends of the cross-bar break off, because there's no way to hold them from twisting. Is what it is. Find a used bar or straighten and weld the old one.

[5495bb]

Thanks fellows. I thought the engine support bar would have to be removed so I don't know why it's so darned tight, unless the shop used Lock-Tite and a big impact driver. I've hit them with my impact gun and followed all the great suggestions I found on this forum but both nuts still won't budge. I even devised little cups that can soak oil into the threaded ends of the bar from the bottom. I'll let the whole thing soak for a few more days then I guess I'll have to use the torch to heat the threads up. That scares me because of the damage one little slip can cause. Long Nose, I have change my CV boots and those bolts were easy because I think that they had been removed before.

[911 SLANT]

What I do is torch with heat, then spray PB Blaster all around to soak in. The metal will expand with the heat to let the PB Blaster in and up into the threads

[DaytonaCoupe66]

If time is on your side, as mentioned give it a few shots of PB Blaster per day and leave it soak for several days. An impact wrench/gun may not turn the bolt but the repeated rat-a-tat-tat combined with the penetrant soak may be enough to allow a breaking bar to do it's thing without twisting off the ends of the support. Often a commercial shop doesn't have this kind of time available to wait, but if it's your winter project, patience may save you a lot of grief / expense in the long run.

[Hotshot]

Mag induction bolt heaters are amazing..

[Dpmulvan]

In my 30+ years of wrenching penetrating oils have never done a damn thing it’s like those copper bracelets for arthritis. Wonder how much money is spent each year on the snake oil? Heat always saves the day.

[faapgar]

On the right side I use a piece of 2 x 4 that is trimmed to fit between the flat cross bar and the rear of the chassis.It keeps it from twisting.20 seconds or so of torch then airgun its balz off.Fred

[5495bb]

Well spring is a long way off so I've got plenty of time. The silly thing is that this was suppose to be a simple Saturday afternoon job. I don't even know if the mounts are bad, I know they're old but the car only has 119k km (71k miles) on it. I'm going to change the transmission mounts too. This all started because when I shift into second at high load/RPMs the shifter "shoots" into the gate from first. It doesn't pop out of gear but you can really feel the torque on the transmission. Dpmulvan I agree with you about having limited success with penetrating oils but if I use the torch to heat the threaded part of the mount I'll probably burn the rubber in the mounts so that will be the point of no return. In addition if I get the mounts cherry red the welds holding the threaded tube on will be like spaghetti and twist even easier. Fun and games.

[Flat6pac]

The 2x4 that Fred mentioned worked in the past for me. Sometimes a breaker bar on the ratchet is good. Air impact is your friend.
Lots of heart inside the chassis could cause a fire,
New bolts are 12x100 with medium threads 1.5 comes to mind.
Bruce

[HarryD]

PSA

[DaytonaCoupe66]

Mine started as an afternoon job to replace engine and transmission mounts and it was > a week before I was finished. The penetrating oil and impact wrench worked on the engine mounts, but I let it soak over 3 evenings. When I get to a point with the breaking bar that just doesn't feel right I'll re-strategize. I go through a lot of the oil working on gear here in the rust belt. Works for me most of the time - torches are great but not in a confined space next to my wiring loom or vacuum lines. If you replace the tranny mounts plan for surprises and celebrate with a beverage if there are none. Be very careful with the threads. I found one cross threaded, and two wrong length bolts...took a week to find the right thread repair kit here in hinterland, and the proper bolts had to be ordered from P. Love that sign above - every garage should have one!

Originally Posted by 5495bb

Well spring is a long way off so I've got plenty of time. The silly thing is that this was suppose to be a simple Saturday afternoon job. I don't even know if the mounts are bad, I know they're old but the car only has 119k km (71k miles) on it. I'm going to change the transmission mounts too. This all started because when I shift into second at high load/RPMs the shifter "shoots" into the gate from first. It doesn't pop out of gear but you can really feel the torque on the transmission. Dpmulvan I agree with you about having limited success with penetrating oils but if I use the torch to heat the threaded part of the mount I'll probably burn the rubber in the mounts so that will be the point of no return. In addition if I get the mounts cherry red the welds holding the threaded tube on will be like spaghetti and twist even easier. Fun and games.

[yelcab1]

The 2x4 trick worked for me most of the time until this year. The engine carrier end just bends and ripped right off the main piece. Time for a new one. I always knew that was gonna happen.

[5495bb]

OK well I got the darned things out this morning. I went out there and removed everything that could catch fire or be damaged with just a slight whiff from the torch. Then I cut a hole on the bottom of a pie plate so that I could stick it over the bolt head and still offer some protection to the rest of the mount. A large round flat washer went over that for more protection. Then I wrapped everything in the surrounding area(fender edges too) with heavy duty tin foil. It looked like some sort of weird Martian operating room with just the bolt head peeking out from all the shiny stuff. I put my smallest tip on the oxy torch and adjusted the flame to bic lighter size. Heated the bolt head slowly until I caught the first whiff of smoke. Then hit it with a 24 inch cheater. It still took a good push but they cracked and came out all nice, shiny and Porschey like. Only the passenger side showed any sign of corrosion although there was some evidence of a thread compound on them.
To sum it up; I soaked them for 4 days and hit them with the impact driver regularly. But in the end I think that blocking the bar against the engine (left side) and body (right side) and applying heat saved the day.
Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and ultimately the encouragement. Man she is one spoiled girl that one! And HarryD.... that sign is priceless.

[pmax]

Congrats !

You are a more courageous man than I, torching so close to a body panel carrying that nice Stuttgart paint.

[911pcars]

It's a typical issue. If bolt threads are dry when installed, they will slowly corrode in place. Fred's suggestion to fit a 2x4 or equivalent to limit flexing of the crossbar end is good. Using that or an equivalent counter-hold while loosening torque applied will:
1. Make it easier to loosen the bolt
2. Prevent the crossbar end from fatiguing and eventually breaking off.

I'd also use penetrating fluid and an impact driver to loosen the bolt. The hammering of the impact mechanism might be less stressfull.

Finally, apply some anti-seize to the bolt threads to avoid this issue if there's a next time.

Sherwood

[5495bb]

New mounts installed with plenty of anti-seize. One tip I thought I'd pass on that may help fellow Pelicans fitting the 4 smaller bolts, washers and nuts on the engine mounts is to use a rare earth magnets to magnetize the bolts. I insert the bolts then put a stack of small rare earth magnets on the bolt head. This magnetizes the bolt so it will hold the washer in place while you maneuver the nut onto the bolt. It was particularly useful on the two rear bolts on the engine mounts. You can use the same technique to magnetize a screwdriver blade to hold screws that are difficult to place.