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Why did porsche stop using fuchs cold forged wheels?
Markus |
Money, Markus, Money. The bean counters have taken over Porsche. Alas, the bean counters and P.T. Barnum were right!
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I was looking at some BBS wheels for my VW not too long ago and found out that they were cast. I thought for sure they'd be forged.
I mean, I'm sure they're good quality, but hey. |
Forged Fuchs are expensive to manufacture and it takes the about a year to design a new wheel. For those interested, the May 2000 issue of Excellence has a very good feature story on Fuchs wheels showing the 5 step forging process.
In the late seventies I saw a dune guggy that had crashed into a tree. The Fuchs (narrow style) had been bent very badly , but did not break. The font suspension of the dune buggy was far worse, being ripped completely from the tubular frame. The strength of these wheels is legendary. Fuchs also makes wheels for Boeing and Airbus jets. |
Hard to believe they're forged because they are so soft and easily scratched!
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Because they went to 17 wheels and Fuchs don't come in that size. As to why the don't make 17" Fuchs???
------------------ 8 9 9 1 1, The last of the line. |
robh,
Cast wheels are not necessarily low strength. There are different types of cast wheels. Gravity casting is the basic type where molten metal is poured into a mold and allowed to harden (these are the "fancy" wheels at your local tire store). There's counter pressure casting where the molten metal is drawn into the mold via a strong vaccuum to eliminate porosity and impurities. High counter pressure molding is even stronger and said to be almost as strong as forging. Another type I have heard of is squeeze casting used on the 93-95 RX7 Twin Turbo which is also said to be quite strong. Considering the cost of some BBS wheels, i'd hope they would be of a quality casting. Not indestructible though. I have seen a number of BBS original RS style 3 pc. wheels with their share of whacks in them. Very nice wheels nonetheless. I'm no wheel builder, that's just what i've read over the years. ------------------ Kevin 87 Carrera coupe [This message has been edited by KTL (edited 08-26-2001).] |
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All the different sizes of Fuchs wheels were forged from the same-sized "lumps" of alloy. As the demand for bigger diameter/width wheels increased, Fuchs became less feasible. They had to switch to more modern (and I guess less costly, why does that make them demons???) cast designs. -d ------------------ Dave '72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project |
NO objection to less costly...it's the less strength and more weight that I don't like. I guess others feel the same?
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Hello
Porsche couldnīt "stretch" them to the new dimensions. With the heavier cars and the new 17" tires the original style was to expensive compared to the new generation rims. The Fuchs rim was designed by Heinrich Klie ( he also made the 5 instrument dash ) and the production proces didnīt left to much freedom on design. This was back in 1966. Mahle also made a wheel the magnesium 5,5" Both where revolutionary in there Time. The Fuchs should have become the standard alloy while the Mahle was intentet for the "S". Now Bott pushed the 6" Fuches even knowing they where "secound choice" but Mahle couldnīt change fast enough to make the 6" mags in time. Many years later Mahle wheels where "outsourced" and renamed to BBS. BBS has a wide wheel selection starting with cast ( For example the 924 "Le Mans" wheels )and ending with Titan F1 stuff. If you have the money ....... Fuchs also made wheels for Mercedes, VW. Fuchs only made forged alloys. The original Fuchs "Flügelrad" was made in 60 production steps and a complete new machine had to be manufactured for that ( This machine was made in Esslingen ) You mostly can find them on personal Protection cars, tanks, airplanes and jet fighters. Grüsse |
And if I recall correctly the company is named "Otto Fuchs Metallwerke", right?
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robh,
BBS does make forged wheels for the 911 called the LM model... Could be more models available also..? How many VW people are going to splurge and pay $500-1000 a wheel for forged? Not many when American Racing is pumping out stuff for $75-100 per wheel. If you are interested in forged special order some 17" Fiske wheels from Wheel Enhancements with a special lug cut and offset... That would be sweet on any car! ------------------ Adrian Pillow 1979 911 SC 1966 VW Microbus PCA - Peachstate Region |
Hey, has anyone ever seen Roland and Warren in the same room at the same time? I think there's something going on here... could they be the same person?
------------------ -Richard '84 Carrera Cabriolet '74 911 Widebody 3.6 Project |
Are there such a thing as fake fuch wheels?
I just bought a set , and they are all of the same size, yet their markings on teh back are not identical, yet they all have the same 911 PN on them. Just wondering if I have impostors! Thanks. |
Porsche couldnt "stretch" them to the new dimensions. . .?
I believe they could, if they saw the proper cost/benefit. I dont believe we will see wheel sizes so big they push the abilities of forging. The lower cost, and the easy of castings to generate a new design look every few years, is what I believe drove the change. <HR><font color="#CCC4A8" face="Arial Black"><strong>'81 Platinum Metalic SC COUPE</strong></font></p> |
Quite a few 'replica' Fuchs wheels out there from 5.5" thru 9" in both 15" and 16" sizes ... both black-ceters and polished, and several well-known catalogs of the slick, colored-type contain them!
Seems like the California VW-crowd were the ones that inspired the fakes/replicas ... though I doubt if anyone bothered to go thru the legal 'hoops' to become ' Factory Authorized replicas' ... ------------------ Warren Hall 1973 911S Targa 1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler |
Reg: Yes, fake Fuchs abound. One giveaway is that cast replicas will be heavier. Look on the back of the wheel for a little "fox face" stamping, as well as the Porsche symbol (triangular symbol) for authenticity. Keep in mind that I have seen replica wheels that DO have a regular Porsche PN stamping.
Island: as mentioned before, the Fuchs blank came in only one size. Finished wheels were limited in dimension by the amount of alloy in the blank. Other blanks were not/could not be used because of the tooling. I've heard no reports of failures of Porsche cast wheels. It seems strange to me that people seem to view the ability to change styles easily and at lower overall costs as DISadvantages. To each his own I guess. -d ------------------ Dave '72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project |
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Not to say the difference in performance of forged vs cast is near the same as Porsche vs Yugo. <HR><font color="#CCC4A8" face="Arial Black"><strong>'81 Platinum Metalic SC COUPE</strong></font></p> |
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Don't get me wrong- I'm a big fan of the Fuchs wheel, it is a timeless beauty, nearly unbreakable, goes straight from street to track etc. But the question is why did Porsche stop using Fuchs wheels, and I think we have answered why. I also believe it was a reasonable decision on their part. YMMV. -d ------------------ Dave '72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project |
You don't have to remove a fake Fuchs wheel to find out there is no Fox head!
Just 'feel' around the edge of one of the spokes to the back side ... since ALL replicas are CAST, there will be a very ROUGH texture on the back side of all of the spokes!!! Genuine Fuchs are smooth everywhere! And, I believe there is some confusion about billet sizes that went into making the various sizes of wheel! The 6" x 15" wheels weighed more that the 4.5" x 15" and 5.5" x 14" wheels, and quite a bit less than the 11" x 15" wheel! The outside diameter of the 'starting' billet was fixed by tooling, but the thickness was surely NOT! That OD was probably limited the range of diameters from 14" to 16" ... but the extra mass of the 9" x 16" wheel didn't come out of 'thin air' and the thickness of the billet was how that adjustment in sizes was made! There really isn't anyone out there that believes the initial size, 4.5" x 15" wheel, used the same billet as the 11" x 15" '73 RSR wheel, is there? ------------------ Warren Hall 1973 911S Targa 1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler |
Indeed, I think the "why" has been answered.
And thanks for reminding me that 'so many owners are using their cars nothing beyond status symbols.' Thanks, really. With the multifaceted enthusiasts who respond on this board it's easy to forget about those "status symbols" seekers. For me, the track is something I will be doing more of. But the bigger attraction is the art of engineering that the Fuchs represent so well. Art is a peculiar thing; the untrained will say the Ruf wheels are superior because they look better to them. Warren- Thanks for bring up the whole same size blank thing. <HR><font color="#CCC4A8" face="Arial Black"><strong>'81 Platinum Metalic SC COUPE</strong></font></p> |
Island- sarcasm or what? "Thanks, really." Anyway I agree with you- the Fuchs wheel is a masterpiece. I've got a little fund going for a set of 8 and 9x16 right now...
Warren- my information is based on my recollections from Aichele's "911 Forever Young." I had the same questions you do about varying wheel widths/weights etc.- I thought perhaps they discarded any excess after extruding the blank on the smaller sizes. After recovering from the application of your wire brush of reason to my soft pink behind, I arrived home and pulled Aichele off the shelf to see if it shed any light. It does not, it just refers to the same pressed blank a few times. Do you know for sure if they used different billets? (Roland? You got anything for us here?) I guess at this point it is details...the Fuchs is gone forever. Slightly off topic- am I the only one who sees a "nod" to the Fuchs paddle look in the Carrera GT wheels? ------------------ Dave '72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project |
I can see a triangle on each wheel, and inside the triangle it appears to have a pie and an orange shaped slice.
I questioned their validity because the backings on the set of four are different, allthough they all have the same PN on them. They all are in fact light, and feel the same weight. Comparing them to my 15" set, the centres do look the same , only they expaned the outer lip to get the extra inch. Only problem is one pair are 95% perfect , while the other are about 70% with their finished edge is not so nice and they have had their centres painted. Now off topic, but someone had mentioned baking soda blasting which makes them highly polished looking, arguably better than new. Does anyone have experience with this and can one apply it with the same equipment you would sandblast with? Thanks! [This message has been edited by Reg (edited 08-28-2001).] |
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I would not have followed it up with an explanation why I needed to hear what you had to say if it were a sarcastic remark. I would have been more overt if I were going for sarcasm. Something like; Gee, thanks bud; you have shown me the light and the errors of my ways. http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/shake.gif Im a bit sensitive on this, as you are the second to throw the sarcasm flag when I was not intending sarcasm. Hmmmm <HR><font color="#CCC4A8" face="Arial Black"><strong>'81 Platinum Metalic SC COUPE</strong></font></p> |
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Reg: HEYYY! Glad to hear you've got the real deal. Can't help with soda blasting- never heard of it. Sounds like it would be quite moisture sensitive- a quality air supply sounds like a must have. Good luck! ------------------ Dave '72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project |
Reg,
I call the triangle mark the 'Stylized "P" mark' and have no idea what it is officially called, but it DOES signify Official OEM products! You will see it on chain tensioners, too! I've never heard of the 'baking soda treatment' ... but, it doesn't sound like a good idea if your Fuchs have the anodizing intact! Niether acids nor bases should be used on anodized surfaces, pH neutral compounds are the best idea! Have you tried the 'Vasoline Rubdown' treatment? ------------------ Warren Hall 1973 911S Targa 1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler |
BEAN COUNTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I have quite often seen ads for "refinished" fuchs. Any information on what the refinishing process is? Any disadvantage from "unrefinished" fuchs? Seems like a silly question, but short of a heavy polish of the wheel, I don't know what else you would do to get rid of scratches, etc.
Regards, Tom |
Tom,
Proper refinishing, besides the usual chemical striping and cleanup of surface blemishes, would also include bead blasting and re-anodizing, then painting of the same areas as when the wheel left the factory. It would never include polishing, since that was a finish that was never used at the factory! Mere polishing is a much simpler and less involved process than refinishing anodized aluminum! ------------------ Warren Hall 1973 911S Targa 1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler |
Mr. S guy,
Thank's for the clarification about the refinishing process. Tom |
KTL,
Thanks for the info waaaayyyy up there. Very interesting. And why would anyone put BBS wheels on a lowly 'Dub? I dunno. No common sense and besides, they're so so nice! (forged or not) |
dtw, I agree with you on the Carrera GT wheels. They do look a bit like the Fuchs - a bit - but still http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif
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robh,
VW used to put BBS and Speedline wheels on some of the vehicles as standard/optional equipment. One example is the Corrado, which offered BBS or Speedline at one time throughout the model run. GTIs and Jettas had some BBS wheels also. I don't know if VW uses BBS or Speedline anymore. Nice cars nonetheless. ------------------ Kevin 87 Carrera coupe |
top of the line BBS wheels:
http://209.4.91.164/Watkins_Glen_Events/Ferrari_Challenge/sunday/bad_weekend.JPG now you know why i called that photo "Bad weekend". that was a Ferrari 360 under the cover. everything will break if you beat on it hard enough. BBS are some of the best wheels on the planet, but don't think that a forged (or cast) wheel is invincible. as many people have noted, Porsche stopped using forged wheels because of money. it's the same reason that Honda stopped using a double-wishbone suspension in the Civic... why put something on a car that a full 85% of the owners don't give two *****s about... especially if you can knock a few bucks off of the manufacturing price of the vehicle. Porsche figures that if you're so concerned about the wheels, you will probably upgrade when you buy the car. why put something on a car that the second, third, fourth, or fifth owner of the car will be the only one to truly appreciate? http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/wink.gif obin [This message has been edited by Obin Robinson (edited 08-28-2001).] |
Hey, has anyone ever seen Roland and Warren in the same room at the same time? I think there's something going on here... could they be the same person?
Will soon be able to proof that this isnīt true. But Porsche is allways the same story and the same facts. If you are long enough in the Porsche fanatic zone you know most off them. AFIK the tools had been changed and Bothner ( the company who handled the Fuchs wheel production ) was thinking about to make it up to a 17" rim but the problem was that they didnīt find a press to handle the force. I think the 15" rims need 60 tons to be pressed to the first step. Later with the bigger presses they could make up to 11" ( in fact they where only 10 3/4" wide ). For the 9x16" the presses where at there working limits. They tried 11 x 16 but the tools couldnīt handle it. If Porsche would have made 17" rim tooling the press and tool technology in that days would have limitet them to maybe 9" maximum and with enough flesh to reach up to 11". The idear to make them in a 3 piece design ( see Compomotive ) was not from interesst as a period BBS 3 piece star was more rigid at a lower wight. Also Porsche was thinking not to hit the road with built wheels as they feared the problems with it. The first street car with factory 3 piece modular rims was the Turbo 3,8 RS ( production# 21 ? ) On the other side Porsche made big steps in developing new rim manufacturing techniques leading into the 959 hollow spoke. The 964 was meant to be a 959 follow up and this is the reason why they shiftet to a 959 look a like rim. Also the marketing didnīt like to have a 90% new car siting on "old" design rims. It was allways a rule that the newest rim and body designs where boltet on old Porsche so the owner was feeling he had a newer car and this also helped boosting sales on rims. In 96 I was in the staates and looked at a 993 body conversion built up on a 71 911 S. That guy spend 20000 $ on Body modification but couldnīt afford a oilchange and MFI maintance and so the thin oil spun the bearing while he tried to outrace a real 993. I told him he could have won the game if he didnīt had hanged to much new junk on the car. ( I like to treat those "americans" real bad ). Back on topic. Fuchs rims are also not invincible and get cracks under race use. I call the triangle mark the 'Stylized "P" mark' and have no idea what it is officially called, but it DOES signify Official OEM products! This is the manufactorer stamp mark. I.g.: "Herstellerkennzeichnung" The P in the triangle has its roots in the 30īs when Porsche had to have a trademark on there products including the drawing sheets. It is a bit close to the ASPA trademark ( Look at old mirrors ) In fact Porsche was the manufactorer from the Fuchs rims. They developed the design and Fuchs was a Partner. But Fuchs was more then a simple supplier. You also will not say that Bosch is a simple car parts supplier. Fuchs is the Porsche under the Aluminium technology and they like to show there capabilitys with the best on the marked. This is the reason why you will not find them on other manufactorers. And as long they can keep up there indipendence you will not see proud rims on sucking cars. Today the Fuchs rims where made in Italy as all the toolings where given to an Italian rim manufactorer. Porsche collects the orders and then those guys prepare the tools and make the ordered demand. This was the deal to become Porsche wheel manufactorer and have the benefits from the Porsche wheel engenieering. This company is also known to make Ferarri wheels and sales wheels under there own Trademark. OK the anodizing story is very complicatet and this was also a Porsche Fuchs exclusive. The rims are in fact bathed in a special soda while they get anodized. This will add strenght to the borderzone ( it is just like hardening a steel with soda ). In fact the Fucheses are not complete anodized. the last anodize process is skiped and this is the reson why they donīt look as glossy as the usuall anodized surfaces you know. The last step is to process the watershrinking with will final smothen and harden the surface but also will deform the wheel out off specs. The Porsche rims are therfore open and rough in surface and need to be paint covered. So the rims got a polishing on the outside and a special thermoplastic paint on the inside. This was done in a bath and deepending on how deep you diped them they had different star patterns. This step was also improved over the years and so they could cover the complete star surface without have the high level shown on the drum face. Remanufactoring old good rims at the prevoius OEMīs runs into something like 300$ piece ( Thats the "good house friends" price and not the official sale price in fact they donīt offer it official as they canīt promiss the quality. It could be that you can junk the wheel after anodizing or start all over as long you have enough "flesh". If the rim is polished to often it is to thin to reprozess or sometimes to thin to use them safe on the street ) Hell the Fuchs rim is only a detail in the Porsche history and many other parts have more brain and development investet into it but noone ( except mechanics ) will see them. But they belong to "Porsche faszination" much more then the Fuchs rims. Donīt have a comment about the fake rims. I also donīt have a comment about fake cobras, rolex, banknoor fake breasts. They only show a fake minded person. Grüsse |
Roland,
Thank you VERY much for your discussion- this is fascinating. Great to have someone here on the board so steeped in the knowledge of these cars. -d ------------------ Dave '72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project |
Yeah! Thank you very much!
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