Why did porsche stop using fuchs cold forged wheels?

[Markus30]

Markus

[pwd72s]

Money, Markus, Money. The bean counters have taken over Porsche. Alas, the bean counters and P.T. Barnum were right!

I was looking at some BBS wheels for my VW not too long ago and found out that they were cast. I thought for sure they'd be forged.

I mean, I'm sure they're good quality, but hey.

[stevelb]

Forged Fuchs are expensive to manufacture and it takes the about a year to design a new wheel. For those interested, the May 2000 issue of Excellence has a very good feature story on Fuchs wheels showing the 5 step forging process.

In the late seventies I saw a dune guggy that had crashed into a tree. The Fuchs (narrow style) had been bent very badly , but did not break. The font suspension of the dune buggy was far worse, being ripped completely from the tubular frame. The strength of these wheels is legendary.

Fuchs also makes wheels for Boeing and Airbus jets.

[movin]

Hard to believe they're forged because they are so soft and easily scratched!

[89911]

Because they went to 17 wheels and Fuchs don't come in that size. As to why the don't make 17" Fuchs???

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8 9 9 1 1, The last of the line.

[KTL]

robh,

Cast wheels are not necessarily low strength. There are different types of cast wheels. Gravity casting is the basic type where molten metal is poured into a mold and allowed to harden (these are the "fancy" wheels at your local tire store). There's counter pressure casting where the molten metal is drawn into the mold via a strong vaccuum to eliminate porosity and impurities. High counter pressure molding is even stronger and said to be almost as strong as forging. Another type I have heard of is squeeze casting used on the 93-95 RX7 Twin Turbo which is also said to be quite strong.

Considering the cost of some BBS wheels, i'd hope they would be of a quality casting. Not indestructible though. I have seen a number of BBS original RS style 3 pc. wheels with their share of whacks in them. Very nice wheels nonetheless.

I'm no wheel builder, that's just what i've read over the years.

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Kevin
87 Carrera coupe

[This message has been edited by KTL (edited 08-26-2001).]

[dtw]

Originally posted by pwd72s:
Money, Markus, Money. The bean counters have taken over Porsche. Alas, the bean counters and P.T. Barnum were right!

??????

All the different sizes of Fuchs wheels were forged from the same-sized "lumps" of alloy. As the demand for bigger diameter/width wheels increased, Fuchs became less feasible. They had to switch to more modern (and I guess less costly, why does that make them demons???) cast designs.

-d

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Dave
'72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project

[pwd72s]

NO objection to less costly...it's the less strength and more weight that I don't like. I guess others feel the same?

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Porsche couldn´t "stretch" them to the new dimensions. With the heavier cars and the new 17" tires the original style was to expensive compared to the new generation rims. The Fuchs rim was designed by Heinrich Klie ( he also made the 5 instrument dash ) and the production proces didn´t left to much freedom on design. This was back in 1966. Mahle also made a wheel the magnesium 5,5" Both where revolutionary in there Time.
The Fuchs should have become the standard alloy while the Mahle was intentet for the "S". Now Bott pushed the 6" Fuches even knowing they where "secound choice" but Mahle couldn´t change fast enough to make the 6" mags in time. Many years later Mahle wheels where "outsourced" and renamed to BBS.

BBS has a wide wheel selection starting with cast ( For example the 924 "Le Mans" wheels )and ending with Titan F1 stuff. If you have the money .......

Fuchs also made wheels for Mercedes, VW. Fuchs only made forged alloys.

The original Fuchs "Flügelrad" was made in 60 production steps and a complete new machine had to be manufactured for that ( This machine was made in Esslingen )

You mostly can find them on personal Protection cars, tanks, airplanes and jet fighters.

Grüsse

And if I recall correctly the company is named "Otto Fuchs Metallwerke", right?

[Pillow]

robh,

BBS does make forged wheels for the 911 called the LM model... Could be more models available also..?

How many VW people are going to splurge and pay $500-1000 a wheel for forged? Not many when American Racing is pumping out stuff for $75-100 per wheel.

If you are interested in forged special order some 17" Fiske wheels from Wheel Enhancements with a special lug cut and offset... That would be sweet on any car!



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Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Region

[motion]

Hey, has anyone ever seen Roland and Warren in the same room at the same time? I think there's something going on here... could they be the same person?

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-Richard
'84 Carrera Cabriolet
'74 911 Widebody 3.6 Project

[Reg]

Are there such a thing as fake fuch wheels?

I just bought a set , and they are all of the same size, yet their markings on teh back are not identical, yet they all have the same 911 PN on them.

Just wondering if I have impostors!

Thanks.

[island911]

Porsche couldn’t "stretch" them to the new dimensions. . .?
I believe they could, if they saw the proper cost/benefit. I don’t believe we will see wheel sizes so big they push the abilities of forging.
The lower cost, and the easy of castings to generate a new design look every few years, is what I believe drove the change.

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'81 Platinum Metalic SC COUPE

[Early_S_Man]

Quite a few 'replica' Fuchs wheels out there from 5.5" thru 9" in both 15" and 16" sizes ... both black-ceters and polished, and several well-known catalogs of the slick, colored-type contain them!

Seems like the California VW-crowd were the ones that inspired the fakes/replicas ... though I doubt if anyone bothered to go thru the legal 'hoops' to become ' Factory Authorized replicas' ...

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa
1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler

[dtw]

Reg: Yes, fake Fuchs abound. One giveaway is that cast replicas will be heavier. Look on the back of the wheel for a little "fox face" stamping, as well as the Porsche symbol (triangular symbol) for authenticity. Keep in mind that I have seen replica wheels that DO have a regular Porsche PN stamping.

Island: as mentioned before, the Fuchs blank came in only one size. Finished wheels were limited in dimension by the amount of alloy in the blank. Other blanks were not/could not be used because of the tooling.

I've heard no reports of failures of Porsche cast wheels. It seems strange to me that people seem to view the ability to change styles easily and at lower overall costs as DISadvantages. To each his own I guess.

-d

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Dave
'72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project

[island911]

Originally posted by dtw:
. . .
Island: as mentioned before, the Fuchs blank came in only one size. Finished wheels were limited in dimension by the amount of alloy in the blank. Other blanks were not/could not be used because of the tooling.

Thanks for the details. I would expect a large tooling effort, but not prohibitively so. However, at the time, so many after market heavy cast wheels were replacing the Fuchs because they looked good. It's hard to argue with the buyer.

Originally posted by dtw:
. . .
I've heard no reports of failures of Porsche cast wheels. It seems strange to me that people seem to view the ability to change styles easily and at lower overall costs as DISadvantages. To each his own I guess.

Yes sometimes cheaper is just that. It is all in ones balance of cost/performance. For example, I could have bought a Yugo and been DISadvantaged with the "cheaper" car. The strength & toughness (per weight) of the Fuchs is very tough to improve upon.
Not to say the difference in performance of forged vs cast is near the same as Porsche vs Yugo.

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'81 Platinum Metalic SC COUPE

[dtw]

Originally posted by island911:
Yes sometimes cheaper is just that. It is all in ones balance of cost/performance. For example, I could have bought a Yugo and been DISadvantaged with the "cheaper" car. The strength & toughness (per weight) of the Fuchs is very tough to improve upon.
Not to say the difference in performance of forged vs cast is near the same as Porsche vs Yugo.

[/B]

Natch. All told, it would seem that only those owners tracking their cars could realize the forged advantages of lower rotating mass/unsprung weight. (And let's be honest- how many "first" owners are using their cars beyond status symbols and actually spanking them around a racetrack).

Don't get me wrong- I'm a big fan of the Fuchs wheel, it is a timeless beauty, nearly unbreakable, goes straight from street to track etc. But the question is why did Porsche stop using Fuchs wheels, and I think we have answered why. I also believe it was a reasonable decision on their part. YMMV.

-d

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Dave
'72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project

[Early_S_Man]

You don't have to remove a fake Fuchs wheel to find out there is no Fox head!

Just 'feel' around the edge of one of the spokes to the back side ... since ALL replicas are CAST, there will be a very ROUGH texture on the back side of all of the spokes!!!

Genuine Fuchs are smooth everywhere!

And, I believe there is some confusion about billet sizes that went into making the various sizes of wheel! The 6" x 15" wheels weighed more that the 4.5" x 15" and 5.5" x 14" wheels, and quite a bit less than the 11" x 15" wheel! The outside diameter of the 'starting' billet was fixed by tooling, but the thickness was surely NOT! That OD was probably limited the range of diameters from 14" to 16" ... but the extra mass of the 9" x 16" wheel didn't come out of 'thin air' and the thickness of the billet was how that adjustment in sizes was made! There really isn't anyone out there that believes the initial size, 4.5" x 15" wheel, used the same billet as the 11" x 15" '73 RSR wheel, is there?

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa
1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler