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-   -   3.6 A/C Upgrade (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/763046-3-6-c-upgrade.html)

kuehl 07-30-2013 11:11 AM
at 25C (77F) latent heat of:
R134a 176
Water 2440

2440/176=13.86

Hence water has nearly 14 times more.....


lol

brads911sc 07-30-2013 11:25 AM
Good to know that wwest does not know how to read and comprehend. Lol


Quote:
at 25C (77F) latent heat of: <br>
R134a 176<br>
Water 2440<br>
<br>
2440/176=13.86<br>
<br>
Hence water has nearly 14 times more.....<br>
<br>
<br>
lol

kuehl 07-30-2013 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwest (Post 7576778)
Gonna take a LOT of heat....

An explanation, but no excuse...so my apologies...

More than 6 months ago I wanted to buy a new R/D and wanted be sure it was compatible with R-134a. Someone referred me to Griffiths and I subsequently attempted to buy a R/D. Every "lead" I followed at that time lead me to a Griffiths page "email for quote" or "call for quote".

Again, no excuse, just an explanation.

Here, we will show you the way
Porsche 911/930 Air Conditioning Components

We made pictures for you as hyperlinks
at McDonalds for new employees.

SilberUrS6 07-30-2013 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrpete (Post 7576361)
Please explain how the ratio of latent heats of 2 different materials at 2 different pressures relates to the efficiency of a heat exchanger.
It doesn't. He's using the Freshman Cancellation Theorem:

If a number appears anywhere on a page twice, it cancels. :)

Now, seriously, the testing of the heat exchanger efficiency DOES NOT DEPEND on working fluid. If you use the same working fluid in each HE, then you will get very similar numbers, no matter what the working fluid.

Of course, if you use a fluid with very little heat capacity, then residence time might make a difference. But that's a variable you want to eliminate. Ideally, you test the component using the working fluid for which it is designed. But test rigs are often not representative of real-world use. Test rigs are often meant as standardized methods by which everyone tests a particular material or component. No, it's not the real world. But folks are comparing apples to apples.

What wwest is doing is multiplying one side of the equation by a number. But not the other side. On purpose.

It's just a plain lie. And an easy one to spot. He gets an "F" for this math assignment. He got an "F" on the pressure rise calculation as well. He doesn't have very many more assignments be fore he flunks right out of this course...

SilberUrS6 07-30-2013 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl (Post 7576801)
at 25C (77F) latent heat of:
R134a 176
Water 2440

2440/176=13.86

Hence water has nearly 14 times more.....


lol
Playing his game?

Please don't. It's bad enough that one person is lying with numbers. Don't give him even a little bit of credibility by doing the same in reverse. Dividing or multiplying the difference ratio between the two tests is bad logic and bad math. The latent heat for BOTH tests is the same with equal working fluid. And it doesn't matter WHICH working fluid one uses - the ratio will still be the same., and multiplying or dividing that ratio AGAIN by latent heat numbers is in essence multiplying or dividing one side of the equation by a number, but not the other.

Epic math fail, wwest.

SilberUrS6 07-30-2013 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brads911sc (Post 7576825)
Good to know that wwest does not know how to read and comprehend. Lol
He does, but he's trying to obfuscate with numbers.

To those without a math background, what he says might seem reasonable.

But for those of us with both an analytical background, and strong math skills, his lies are blatantly obvious.

wwest 07-31-2013 09:30 AM
Okay, in layman terms...

The molecular density of (liquid) water vs refrigerant GAS makes the water astoundingly more efficient for heat transfer vs refrigerant GAS.

The more molecules, COLD molecules, flowing past, "touching" the inside of the condenser interior walls the better will be the heat transfer efficiency.

wwest 07-31-2013 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilberUrS6 (Post 7577806)
It doesn't. He's using the Freshman Cancellation Theorem:

If a number appears anywhere on a page twice, it cancels. :)

Now, seriously, the testing of the heat exchanger efficiency DOES NOT DEPEND on working fluid. If you use the same working fluid in each HE, then you will get very similar numbers, no matter what the working fluid.

Of course, if you use a fluid with very little heat capacity, then residence time might make a difference. But that's a variable you want to eliminate. Ideally, you test the component using the working fluid for which it is designed. But test rigs are often not representative of real-world use. Test rigs are often meant as standardized methods by which everyone tests a particular material or component. No, it's not the real world. But folks are comparing apples to apples.

What wwest is doing is multiplying one side of the equation by a number. But not the other side. On purpose.

What "other" side..." If you adjust the "delta" equally, across the board, you end up with a radically smaller difference amongst the 3 test subjects.

It's just a plain lie. And an easy one to spot. He gets an "F" for this math assignment.

He got an "F" on the pressure rise calculation as well.

I did..? When did that occur..? All I have seen in rebuttant is "prove it", insofar as I am aware no one has offered any data that disputes my "speculation"

He doesn't have very many more assignments be fore he flunks right out of this course...

Water was at 39F, airflow to be cooled was at 100F...

OEM delta with water was, 100F - 62F = 38F, adjusted for R-134a, 38F/14 = 2.71F.

"Other" delta with water was, 100F - 59F = 41F, adjusted for R-134a, 41F/14 = 2.92F.

Kuehl delta with water was, 100F - 55F = 45F, adjusted for R-134a, 45F/14 = 3.21F.

OEM R-134a delta = 2.71F

Kuehl R-134a delta = 3.21F

3.21 - 2.71 = 0.50F

In layman terms the Kuehl evaporator offers less than 1% difference in heat transfer efficiency.


...

kuehl 07-31-2013 10:14 AM
No. Lol.

The Kuehl unit was 6 to 7 degrees colder than OEM.

And the Kuehl unit has fewer brazed/soldered joints compared to the OEM.

Simply put, the Kuehl unit is the best 911/930 evaporator on the earth.

wwest 07-31-2013 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl (Post 7578490)
No. Lol.

The Kuehl unit was 6 to 7 degrees colder than OEM.
Yes, but with water as the heat transfer medium, adjusted for R-134a's much lower molecular density the difference is less than 1%, 0.5F.

wwest 07-31-2013 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl (Post 7578490)
No. Lol.

The Kuehl unit was 6 to 7 degrees colder than OEM.

And the Kuehl unit has fewer brazed/soldered joints compared to the OEM.

And just what does that little tidbit of infomation "do" for the buyer...??

Simply put Willy, the Kuehl unit is the best 911/930 evaporator on the earth.

No denying that, but is a 1% improvement worthwhile given the labor and $$$ involved.

Now that you have, once again, wasted the communities time with childish jihad, go along and see what's on your honey do list Willyboy.
A DIY'er would be better served simply cleaning the OEM evaporator, blower wheel vanes, and renewing the motor brushes and commutator.

Oh, and removing the "bowtie"..

brads911sc 07-31-2013 11:18 AM
Sigh. Wwest. Please take your toys and go home.

wwest 07-31-2013 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brads911sc (Post 7578607)
Sigh. Wwest. Please take your toys and go home.
What, no "factual" rebuttal..???

kuehl 07-31-2013 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwest (Post 7578541)
A DIY'er would be better served simply cleaning the OEM evaporator, blower wheel vanes, and renewing the motor brushes and commutator.

Oh, and removing the "bowtie"..
I know that a DIY would be better off ignoring your posts.

A DIY can't easily repair corroded evaporator joints on a 25 year old fashion tube and fin evaporator.

A DIY can't effectively repair an out of round commutator nor replace missing metal, nor worn bushings on a 25 year old motor

And, post your data of gains you got observed by cleaning all of your neighbors 911 blower wheel vanes.

And, post your graphical representation of the benefit achieved in cockpit air flow by simply removing the bow tie louver so the air hits the back of the console and the driver's leg.

kuehl 07-31-2013 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwest (Post 7578530)
Yes, but with water as the heat transfer medium, adjusted for R-134a's much lower molecular density the difference is less than 1%, 0.5F.
Prove it.

Bob Kontak 07-31-2013 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl (Post 7578674)
Prove it. Not with your funky zany flip flop math. Actually prove it Willyboy.
You guys are doing ok without me. Keep up the good work.

When I started planning the trip to Oregon on tertiary roads, wearing diapers, I kinda figured it was time for a little "space" from the Will-meister.

I am far, far too unstable to be jacked with.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375300923.jpg

brads911sc 07-31-2013 12:09 PM
Wwest. You are the one making up the funny math, theories about the benefits of cleaning 30 year old components with no proof... You have a new solution in search of a problem daily. how about this. post a video showing the increase in air in cleaning the evap, the drop in pressures to rebuilding old fans, The air temp drop in cabin with and without Bowie.... And then we will actually have something to refute.

Post the videos wwest!!!

Quote:
<div class="pre-quote">
Quote de <strong>wwest</strong>
</div>

<div class="post-quote">
<div style="font-style:italic">Sigh. Wwest. Please take your toys and go home.</div>
</div>What, no "factual" rebuttal..???

wwest 07-31-2013 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl (Post 7578671)
I know that a DIY would be better off ignoring your posts.

A DIY can't easily repair corroded evaporator joints on a 25 year old fashion tube and fin evaporator.

Apples vs Oranges..Repair vs UPGRADE...

$300.00:

RennAire Serpentine Evaporator - RennAire LLC

A DIY can't effectively repair an out of round commutator nor replace missing metal, nor worn bushings on a 25 year old motor

I have used a drill press to "turn" many commutators, re-oiled more bushings than replaced, but have replaced not just a few. Brushes/holders, POC.

And, post your data of gains you got observed by cleaning all of your neighbors 911 blower wheel vanes.

Restate the obvious...??

And, post your graphical representation of the benefit achieved in cockpit air flow by simply removing the bow tie louver so the air hits the back of the console and the driver's leg.
The OBJECT of a MAC A/C is to cool the cabin down as quickly as possible but not to excessive passenger discomfort...widely dispersed COLD and massive airflow volume. Once that is achieved low and slow is the name of the game.

w/bowtie:

....................

Without:

.................................

brads911sc 07-31-2013 12:36 PM
what do the dots represent? LOL
Post the video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwest (Post 7578752)
The OBJECT of a MAC A/C is to cool the cabin down as quickly as possible but not to excessive passenger discomfort...widely dispersed COLD and massive airflow volume. Once that is achieved low and slow is the name of the game.

w/bowtie:

....................

Without:

.................................

wwest 07-31-2013 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuehl (Post 7578674)
Prove it. Not with your funky zany flip flop math. Actually prove it Willyboy.
Now that the math proves you have been selling (marketing..) Snake OIL it becomes "funky/zany"

Food for thought.


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