Weird report from alignment shop.
 

I had my car aligned the other day at a reputable Porsche alignment shop. They said they couldn't get it perfect, but got it as close as possible.
I didn't get a printout with #s or anything, but he said something about 3* degrees of camber was the best he could do. And he said one of my tires is about an 1" forward than the other. I haven't measured them myself yet. It really made no sense.
It drives and handles great, always has. It was a 4 wheel alignment, but most of the issues are with the front.

He asked what kind of shocks I had and I told him Bilsteins, at least I thought that was what I had. He looked and noticed that there wasn't a roll pin so he figured they weren't Bilsteins, even though they are green. The he started looking further and said my brakes look too small. I should have the bigger brakes.
He asked if the car was ever crashed.
I said yes, I smashed up the front end once and had to put on a new front clip.

I told him that I remember the clip and thought it was from a later year, and I thought a clip was just the body and my parts went on it.
He thinks something is bent, either my A arms, or struts. He also thinks that I have a T front suspension on my car. Is that possible? It has been worked on numerous times, it has been aligned a few times, it has brake work. Is it possible that someone at the body shop replaced my front suspension with a 911T suspension?
Would it even fit or work?

He suggested that I look for a complete front suspension from an SC and put that on the car. Then realign it.

Does any of this make any sense?
What is the difference between a 911S suspension and a 911T suspension?
It's very weird.

I wouldn't mind pulling my struts, sending them to Elephant and for 350.00 having the spindles raised. Then at the same time they could check for straightness.
Then replace the A arms.

Doesn't that sound like a better alternative than buying a whole new used suspension?

I had mine aligned and got a similar report. These new alignment machines give a very thorough analysis and can detect very small differences. In my case I think the castor was slightly off. The guy who did my car told me they were unable to get the alignment perfect but then he added that I would probably never detect it. I think that is what you are saying: it drives perfectly. I was told that I might see some aberrant tire wear over 40K miles or so. I don't see that as a significant problem.

How about some pics of the front suspension? T stuff would bolt on. You can bolt on a complete suspension from just about any 911 and it will work. The 1975 911S wasn't as special as the earlier S's, though. There wasn't a 911T in 1975 but the S got stuff that wasn't top shelf anymore (Carerra now occupied that position).

I just reached under the car and snapped these. Will they work?http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375645520.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375645540.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375645573.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375645592.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375645612.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375645658.jpg

I would get that car onto a Celette and see if the clip is on straight(!)

Have all the welding checked for structural integrity also.

Small misalignments might be something that some of the Eleph. Racing items can take care of.

I'm sure the clip is straight. Even the alignment guy said it didn't look like there was a problem with the clip. It's been 10/ 12 years since last time I crashed it and needed the clip.

I'm wondering if some of my parts were slightly bent during the accident and went back on the car. I think that is what happened.
Or maybe they replaced the bad parts with 911T parts, or maybe the guy was wrong, and they are not T parts. It's the first I have ever heard of it. I have had the car for 20 years and am the 2nd owner.
Beats me.

What do you think? Do those look like Bilsteins to you? Should I buy some Bilstein struts and replace all shocks?
Should I have the spindles raised on my existing struts and have them straightened, then get a couple of A arms?
Should I leave it alone and save some money? It's not bad, it was just shocking to hear all those weird things about my car.

From the pics you posted it does look like you have Boge struts, and those are not S calipers. I believe the 75S still had the alloy calipers?

If you jack up the car, and remove the wheel it will be much easier to tell. The struts will most likely have the manufacture, Boge or Bilstein, stamped on them. Otherwise when looking at the top part of the strut you will be able to tell if they have Bilstein inserts or not.

As far as raising the spindle goes, why would you want to do that? You will be able to lower the front a little further of course, but there are consequences in doing so.

BTW Everyone I talked to will not raise Boge strut spindles.

They're not Bilstein struts and those are the calipers that a 75 911s would have come with
I would think you probably have bent struts it's almost impossible to bend the control arms in the direction that would cause negative camber
I'd look for SC or Carrera Bilsteins with calipers

Trackrash, Elephant will do it for 350.00. Elephant Racing | Struts and strut services | Porsche 911/912/930 As far as why, I don't exactly know. I just always heard it was better for a car as low as mine. I am 23 3/4" rear, 24 1/4" front.
Maybe I'm wrong. It was just a thought and figured i could get them raised and straightened cheaper than buying new ones.
What are the negative consequences?
Could I have Bilstien inserts in my Borge struts? It's been 20 years but I could of sworn they were Bilsteins. I have painted the calipers black.

Dan J, Maybe i should start with some used Bilstein struts, 4 shocks because I read you should always change all 4. And then do a complete bushing refresh from front to back.
The shocks have about 85,000 on them. I would just use stock bushings I think.
If control arms are cheap, it might not be bad to just change those out.
I don't know.

there is a jig that the rear arms can be checked with - assuming you can find one...

dunno re front

rather than jumping into the middle of a diagnostic procedure, why not start with the basics and proceed from there? that means a Celette - should not be too spendy just to get it checked


my '75S had "S" calipers - dunno if a PO added them or what

Dan, why would I need new calipers?

Because then I won't get new stuff.;)

I bolted a complete SC suspension on my 914-6 back about 20 years ago when these parts were plentiful and cheap. You get: SC struts (Bilstein), SC swaybar and A-arms, Al crossmember vs steel, SC brakes and rotors. I would do that, then go back for re-alignment.

That's what he suggested. He said I don't need the rack and pinion, but everything else from drums in, would be perfect. My brake lines would hook right up.
He thought I could find one for 500.00 bucks. If that is true, I would think about it.

I'm just weighing options.
I am also wondering if an SC suspension is that much better than what I have, is it?

Yup, I agree. I got all that stuff for $200 in the 1990s. The rotors (not drums) and pads, pins, springs, bearings, etc I would buy new. The calipers can be rebuilt but not old. Be careful when buying used spindles. You want to mic them or look for scoring, wear, etc. Do not buy used parts sight unseen. At least insist on pics, and a closeup of the spindles unless you are planning to replace them or send them in to be replaced/ raised etc.

Another option is to get any number of new spindle setups (Bilstein RSR, Rebel, Elephant, etc.) that have raised and reinforced spindles. I got my genuine RSR strusts with raised spindles for about 1K from a guy in Northridge. That was a steal that I found on a 914 board way before Pelican got going.

If it has been this way for 20 years and you have been happy with it up until someone said something, which you admit you do not fully comprehend, why the need to do anything?
The fact that it was clipped is significant. Unless you know that all the pickup points are correct doing anything with changing parts is just activity. Yes you may replace a bent part but if the tub is not square you will just be changing the nature of the misalignment. The only way to know if the tub is square would be on a rack such as a Celete. If you do not want to go to that effort continue to enjoy the car as you have been for the last 20 years.

Rusnak,
Are Bilstein struts that much better than Borg, if I have Bilstein inserts?
If you click on that link in post 10. I could get my existing struts straightened out, the spindles raised, and a racing bump steer kit done for 700.00. Probably a bit more if they have to straighten the strut.
They would come back blasted and painted. Mine are looking pretty shabby.
I think that is a pretty good deal. Then I wouldn't need 4 new shocks either.
I think that is the cheapest route. New Bilsteins aren't cheap, struts or shocks.

If that doesn't fix the problem, I wont feel bad because I got the new bump steer it, painting and raised spindles. Then all that is left, if there is still a problem, are A arms. But Dan thinks that is highly unlikely. Then I could do a complete front to rear bushing refresh. The spring plate bushings are brand new. Everything else is old, real old.
Unless I listen to RWebb and my clip is on wrong, but I'm pretending that is not what is wrong!

I don't know, I kind of like my plan. The other plan is to do nothing.

Boba, I don't mind doing nothing. That is an option.
But if I could make a significant improvement in steering/ handling for less than a grand, I would.

A major part of my point is that if you do not know positively that your starting base is a square tub, merely swapping parts will not be an improvement, only a change.

I would agree that based on some of your comments; 20 years, 85,000 miles, that you could benefit from new parts and a fresh alignment. But if your tub is tweaked you could be chasing the unobtainable. In other words, before making any changes have a known baseline, that is to spec.

I don't know if someone else mentioned this - but upgrading to SC struts will allow you to install larger brakes. Your stock struts have 3" o.c. caliper bolts, the SC has 3.5" which will allow you to chose from a huge selection of brake options. With your stock struts, you're stuck with the small brakes. Now, this really isn't an issue for street driving but...

OK, Rwebb and Boba, you talked me into it. I just found a place that does unibody straightening and they are not too far from here. I'll give them a call and see what they charge to check out the body.
That is probably a good idea.
Maybe they can even tell me if my A arms and struts are straight.

No, nobody mentioned that. But I am curious about all the differences between the 2 suspensions.

It appears you have the older style Boge struts. If you look carefully at the top of the strut tube you will see it stamped in. If you look carefully at the strut tube, you will notice that the tube is larger in diameter above where the spindle mounts, which makes raising it problematic. No one will do the spindle raise on these, at least not a few years ago when I wanted to do mine. Now the newer Boge struts are a different story, so I think that's where the confusion lies. I ended up raising my own spindles, since everyone told me they wouldn't do mine, which by the way look identical to yours.

If you raise the spindles you will have to somehow correct for the bumpsteer caused by raising the steering arm either by having the arm bent or installing a bumpsteer kit. (the rack spacers won't do it) It will also change your roll stiffness, so you will have to adjust that by stiffening the rear suspension.

Up to this point it is all conjecture, since we really don't know exactly what struts and calipers you have.

I would first measure your wheel base on each side and see if there really is a 1" difference.

Then jack up the car, take off the wheel and measure the spacing of the caliper mounts, it's either 3 or 3.5". Also the struts should have the manufacture and date stamped near the top. While you are in there make sure the gland nut is tight. I bet the alignment guy never checked.

Have you had any tire wear problems?

I just measured cap to cap. I had my wife eyeball the middle of the cap and I held the other end. The caps are recessed so it is not exact, but it looks like 89 1/4" on the passenger side and 89 1/2" on the drivers. That's weird?

Here is a shot of the struts I have on my car now. They are Konis and you can see the name KONI stamped tword the top. There is a manufacture date there as well. I raised the spindle 22mm and added gussets. You can also see my bumpsteer kit.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375660758.jpg

That looks nice. Mine sure is filthy.

Assuming you had the wheels pointing strait ahead, 1/4" difference is probably within acceptable limits.

Check carefully the tightness of the struts, inserts, and wheel bearings, as they will affect the camber measurements.

So pull the wheel and let us know what you find.

BTW, that's and old picture of my strut, it's not as nice looking now.

The wheel wasn't exactly straight. I turned it left about 16th turn and that moved the right up and the left side back. I'll bet that was the 1/4".
What the heck was that guy talking about something being 1" off?

Do you still think i need to take it to the frame straightening shop for checking? Or at this point can I assume it is a bent strut?

Did you check out the link in post 10? Elephant Racing | Struts and strut services | Porsche 911/912/930 it says Boge struts 69 to 89.
I don't see the diameter difference in my strut that you do.

I'll pull the wheels and take some pictures. Then I can check for inserts too.
Thanks.

I would toss the Boge and go Bilstein, especially if you're spending money on modifying the struts.

I may have Bilstein inserts in Boge struts. I don't know yet. It also depends on the cost of a couple of Bilstein struts.
In the back my shocks are green. That's Bilstein, right. I had them all replaced at the same time.
If I have Bilstein shocks in Boge struts, will the existing shocks fit into a Bilstein strut.

My head is starting to hurt.

I also did the light Al parts thing to my 911 - worthwhile IMO. IIRC, the Bilstein struts are inverted and help with wt. being down low.

could be ball joint time for you also - on mine I just "did a Grady" i.e. injected some heavy oil - there is a pic on my suspension thread I think

what you really want is digressive valving

what you really want to pay for is...

If Elephant will do those struts, great, but I have my doubts. Look here on your struts, they "neck down" in size at the arrows, the older Boge and Konis do this. Unless there is distortion in your photo they look exactly like older Boges. The newer ones, like on Carreras, are one diameter.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1375674798.jpg
I personally have had bad luck with alignment "specialists". Like not checking for loose or worn parts. 1" off sounds weird, especially if you haven't had any problems with tire wear or handling.
Bent struts are fairly common, however.

Actually, the Bilsteins have the weight up top (inverted). They reduce the unsprung weight but raise the cg.

Dispo, I wouldn't bother raising the spindles. That is only for extremely low cars and when you do it you need to add a bumpsteer kit. I have the A-arms horizontal, standard spindle height, and no complaints about handling that I think a higher front roll center would help. Also, when you raise the spindles you limit yourself to using larger diameter wheels depending on how high you raise them.

Is there a shop in southern california that has Celette (and fixtures) for the 70's 911 ?

My bet is that your spindle is bent slightly.

Your a arms have the under the body sway bar attachment. The Ts have a through the body sway bar attachment. Not sure about the rest of your stuff.

So maybe struts, balljoints,bushings. Don't raise spindles?
My front is at 24 1/4". I'm on 16's.

Just talked to a local used parts supply house.
350.00 a piece for Bilstein struts. 1200.00 for a complete SC front suspension.
I would say the complete suspension idea is out.

I'm going to call the unibody frame straightening place and see if they can put my car on the rack and tell me if my struts or A frames are bent.

I would go with Bilstein struts and SC rebuilt calipers, which will require SC rotors. You can re-use your old stuff. I seriously doubt that your tub is welded in 1" off, but who knows.