Dropping an engine- Is it really that difficult?
 

After twenty years of faithful service, I think my old girl (79SC) needs a top end and a clutch. I'm a fairly good amateur mechanic and always thought I would be able to handle the job myself but after reading threads on this forum, I'm not so sure. Is the top end of a Porsche engine that much more complicated than other engines? I would like to maintain the pride one gets from doing it oneself, but I don't want a disaster on my hands.

I watched my Dad drop numerous VW engines. First he would lower the engine as far as he could. Then my brother and I would grab the bumper, lift the rear of the car and roll it forward until it cleared the engine. Does this method not work for a Porsche? I can't justify laying out a bunch of cash for jacks that I'll probably use for one project. Also, someone mentioned special tools needed for timing chain alignment, are they really necessary? Are there any other special tools needed for the job besides the basic tools found in most armature mechanic's toolbox?

Thanks for any advice.

Gary

You and your brother no doubt won the Feats of Strength on every Festivus.

Yes, if you and your brother are strong enough, you could lower the 911 engine as low as possible, and then you guys could lift the car up and over the engine.

As the big box home improvement ad goes, "You can do it, we can help." I'm in the middle of tear-down with my engine in complete bits. I'm pretty handy but this is a little daunting. I went ahead and tackled it mainly because of this site. I figure I can get just about any question answered here with color pictures and step by step instructions. If it can be done to these cars, someone here has done it. I am blazing no trails here.

As for special tools, I just tore down my engine. I can tell you that you won't need the crow's foot and the special socket for tear-down but you will indeed need them to tighten that big freaking nut upon reassembly. You will also need a way to measure the timing: Z block and dial gage. I just posted in the classifieds and someone loaned me the tools. I have the return box all ready to go in case he needs it back before I finish. I bought a set of stud removers. I also got an engine stand and yoke but a nice big bench would do just as well. I've been picking up this stuff over a long time and none of it was expensive.

You will need a good floor jack and jack stands. 911's weigh a bit more than bugs.

Study Wayne's and/or Bruce's book. Decide what below you can do without.

Waynes engine book
Bruce Anderson's performance handbook
Clutch Alignment Pin
Inside micrometers or
Telescoping gauges with outside micrometers
Dial indicator with Z block and interchangeable shaft pins
Valve lash adjustment 0.004" blade
Feeler gauges for ring gap and end gap
Sprocket offset tool.
Big Crowsfoot wrench
Special cam holding socket
Two big honkin 1/2 drive breaker bars
Sprocket/layshaft offset measurement tool
Depth micrometer or dial calipers that measure depth.
Good torque wrench
GOOD quality wrenches and sockets - Craftsman or better
Loctite 574
Timing light
Fuel gauges
CO sniffer
Long 3mm wrench for AF mixture
Ring compressor
Two stretch bolts and plastigage for checking one rod bearing
Engine yolk
Engine stand

Gary,
What is your location. Perhaps others are close by to lend a hand/tools?

Thor

+1 Add to the list.

Yea, jack stands are not an option (unless you have a lift.) ;)

There are no hand holds for a 911 that a couple of very strong men can use. I use my jack stands all the time. I can't imagine working on a 911 without 4 good jack-stands.

$99 motorcycle jack was good enough for me. Yes drop the engine first then raise the car up.. I used stacks of wood. Sorry can't help you on the top end department...yet. Excuse the red paint (stupid Chevy mechanic did that).
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1381438380.jpg

Thanks Thor,
I,m in Omaha. Any help would be great.

Gary

Don't kill yourself to save a few bucks. No jack stands? Are you serious?

You are dealing with an engine that is arguably "exotic" given the parts explosion.

You are also GROSSLY underestimating the task.

I think you and your pal have not a clue of how to pull this off and I am sensing that you will not put the time into required due diligence.

You will **** this up, BIG TIME. Guaranteed, unless you change your mindset.

Mark my words.

Have a nice evening.

Dropped mine for the first time this Tuesday which took me 2 hrs start to finish. I lowered mine on to 4x4's and then jacked the car up and slid her out.

looks good , but how did you jack up the car once you dropped the engine ? is there a good spot to jack up with the engine dropped ?

I placed my Jack right under where the shift tube exits at the end of the floorpan. I used a 2' block of wood to run along the bottom edge and it went up without issue.

would have been cool to have a pic of that because you solved the dillema i thougt about a lot .. by the time you got the car high enough to drop the engine it would be at such a severe angle it would be a nightmare.

Your method solves this.

You have to watch Bob. Sometimes he is too subtle. We keep telling him he needs to learn to speak up and be direct. Maybe one day he'll learn.

Maybe there is a 12 step program.........

However, I see big time disaster in this situation. Won't spring for jack stands and discounts chain/sprocket alignment as if it were fashion.

Perhaps cam timing and valve adjustment could also be bypassed.

This guy is the the future PO we see other people talking trash about.

No jack stands. No chance.

Purchase some good jack stands, and a good floor jack. A DIY Porsche owner will always need these. Like, brake jobs, new clutch, ect... Drop the engine-trans as a unit, load it in a trunk or a trailer and take it to a somebody reputable, that does this for their lively hood, what I did when I found broke head studs, and very happy I did. You will save $$ in just the beer it would cost.

Just like buying tools, buy cheap buy twice ;)

Gary,

If you think spending $30 for a set of jackstands is outrageous wait till you buy the rebuild gasket set for $287 for your top end rebuild project. BTW, you might need an engine stand and engine yoke (optional) but if you want it done properly, you need to borrow or buy some of these tools to do a decent job. Otherwise, you are doom for disaster from the very beginning. Good luck.

Tony

You will need for sure the cam sprocket holding tool. I made a homemade one and broke it instantly.

I'll say this, I rebuilt my whole engine without an engine stand. Built it 100% on a table.

No special jack needed, just balance cases on a standard jack with damage protection. Jack mine high enough front bumper touches ground and then put cinder blocks with boards until the rear tires are supported.

Lastly, the cam timing is the most complicated but it's not bad if you don't overthink it. Follow Bentley and Wayne's book as a supplement and it's easy.

It seems like a newcomer might be able to figure out how to remove the engine.
If one were going to have a pro rebuild the engine, is it even worth removing it yourself?
How much do you think you'd save on the $15k rebuild? 4 hours labor? $500? Doesn't seem worth the hassle.

Thanks for the great ideas and advice guys. Gave me a lot to think about.
By the way.... of course I have a good set of jack stands. Like most Porsche owners, I spend alot of time under my car. Just not sure they are tall enough for an engine drop.

Gary

Check my first time drop thread, im halfway thru a top end and clutch. Also a pretty experienced home mech, i bought $500 in tools for the job, that includes some pretty good comparison shopping and many trips to harbor freight. The drop was pretty easy. The rest of it is rather involved. Not rocket science and very rewarding but lotsa parts, lotsa googling techniques, probably lotsa surprises although ive been lucky so far, no snapped bolts or broken headstuds. Im budgeting between 3000 and 3500 inclusive of tools, mach shop, parts etc. will take me a month minimum, working an hour or two at night and much of every weekend, but its my first time. Also i screwed up the critical path by not ordering things like the engine stand yoke soon enough.

Cost Concerns
 

You need to make some "Porsche" friends who likely have an abundance of tools sitting and may be willing to share.
Buy used special tools and re-sell when done using. That's what I did and I always recovered 75% minimum of the cost. Not much you can do on the actual P-Car parts you'll need but we're pretty fortunate they're easy available at all for 25 to 30 year old + cars.
The tools I keep seem to get used all the time, jacks, stands, etc. so they were all excellent investments. My high reach Arcan Jack (always in use) does everything including lifting the entire car for the removal process. Cost was less than $100 on special.

There are dozens of project threads on this forum, you'll want to spend some time reading them. Get Wayne's engine book as a minimum reference, better to have that AND the Bentley Book.

I worked on cars, motorcycles, and other motorized objects my entire life, but never on a Porsche. I found that the most important time I spent on my drop-and-top-end project was the "class work."

there was a picture of someones large flat four point jack that was recessed into a square hole cut into the garage floor. Only a few inches deep tho enough to level the jack to the floor. A very nice setup as it looked to be enough to raise the entire car high for an engine drop

We used our lift and a let it down on a 4 wheel furniture dolly from harbor freight. Was very easy

That would be Mr. Jack Olsen, a Porsche guy with amazing talents. His garage is something to covet for sure.:cool:

Regarding getting the engine and gearbox out of a 911, it is relatively simple if you plan ahead. As far as rebuilding the engine, don't do it unless you have lots of previous engine rebuilding experience. These engines are difficult to rebuild at best. If you have to remove broken studs and bolts, it gets much more difficult. Add to this joints without gaskets (Never understood why they do this......Cost saving?), valve timing setup, nikasil/alusil barrels, etc to contend with, it is a very time consuming, costly and complicated process. It is very rewarding when completed I am told. I will let you know when I have finished!

My way
 

Here is the way I did it after considering the cost of a car lift.
I used 8x10 cedar lumber pieces and made 4 solid stands. I jacked the front
and then the back twice. Each time raising the car and placing a block underneath each wheel. I measured the height from the bottom of the engine to the highest part of the engine to see how much room I needed to get the engine out.
I removed the rear bumper and supports (very easy) and then measured from the reflector down to see how much I needed to raise the car to remove the engine (plus the height of the jack).

Jacked it up, undid the 4 mounting bolts...(with other associated stuff) and dropped it straight down (relatively speaking)....

Very easy to do. and I think the stands are safer than Jack stands....plus it provides a lot of room to get underneath and do some cleanup work.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1381516862.jpg

WOW! How big are those freakin' tires???

Roger

315/30/18 and if you look carefully, you will see 996 big red brakes inside of them as well.

Very cool! Makes me kinda envious of your "big booty". I'm still toolin' around in my '72 with a "skinny ass".

Roger

Im by no means an experieced 911 mechanic but i did it for the first time in a few hours using a big red floor jack, a few bits of 2x4 wood and and 2 high lift stand that i borrowed from a friend that likes raised trucks with big wheels. :)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1347069543.jpg

This was my first engine drop.....
I have learned a thing or two since then...Be Safe!

For the engine drop: if you're a 911 owner with a set of basic tools, it's pretty easy. The "work" that is hard is the top end you're speaking of.

Getting to the tools/jack/jackstand investment you're contenplating: a standard set of 4 jackstands will be fine. In fact, when we dropped the engine out of Dad's car we never raised put the jack stands higher than the 3rd or 4th setting. For the re-install I pulled the rear bumper, and had the jack stands no higher than the 3rd setting ever. DohertyCM has a pretty good idea with the blocks as stands, quite a bit safer as well.

To a point, you're working on a car that is very special. Tools tend to have a use in the future, and if you buy a nice jack, and 4 "A-zone" grade jackstands, you're going to be fine. Further, that may be the cheapest part of your voyage! And if you don't like the color of your jack or jackstands (or dont have the room for them), you can always dump them on C-list when you are done with the project.

For the re-install, I grabbed an ATV jack that really helped. Nice, but not a necessity.

Good luck!

What the heck is holding this car up? Please dont tell me its just that jack!

Dude it was my first time....I said I learned a lot of things during that drop...

(yes it was just the jack)