I hope this isn't a 'Newbie Screwup'

[bryant4]

New owner...
Not the best way to introduce myself, but...

Mid August bought a very nice '78 sc that would not smog but ran well. Had been sitting in a garage for 12 years and rarely driven and the last two years it had been on a non-op status.. I got it cheap with the understanding that I would be responsible with getting it smoked (in Calif it is the seller's job to get it smoked).
I thought it was simply suffering from sitting too much.

First, I ran Seafoam thru the gas and then directly into the throttle body via vacuum and drove a couple of spirited drives with highish rpms and it seemed to be running quite well. tho it had a hunting idle.
Aha Vacuum leaks, I thought...

About 2 weeks ago, after a lot of study (including taking the engine building class about 5 years ago, before I even owned one) I tore into the engine with the plan of getting it cleaned up and replacing the seals in the usual leak spots, setting the valves, replacing ignition parts that were all at least 12 - 16 years old

and voila, it would run clean and smog.

So, I found lots of vacuum leaks and hoses not attached or cracked. The o-ring under the t-body was missing a 2" chunk! I replaced the injector sleeves and o-rings. Amazed it ran as well as it did.

All this time (the last 2 weeks) the car was up on jackstands waiting for the fan and housing to come back from being beautified by Barry. While I did a bunch of deferred maintenance and projects from Waynes book.

Yesterday I got the CIS assembly back into the engine compartment and began hooking up all the various connections. Last night I strapped on the fan, tightened the belt and removed the valve covers so I could start early on the valve adjustment...

OKAY, HERE IS THE PROBLEM...
I put my 24mm socket on the fan nut and began rotating clockwise and the motor turned easily (plugs are out) about 90 degrees or less and then stopped.
I tried to turn it harder. Nada.
I eased it back the other direction about an inch (mindful that you are not supposed to turn this direction) and it turned easily.
clockwise again and it stops.

WTF?

After considerable headscratching I have surmised that there must be something that has fallen into one of the openings into the engine that I THOUGHT I had kept plugged.

Not sure where to start.

Powerful flashlight into the intake holes shows nothing obvious.

Suggestions?



sorry about duplicate posting in the wrong forum...

[pete3799]

Transmission in neutral?

[bryant4]

Yes, trans in neutral and car in the air with no wheels.

[yelcab1]

More information needed.

What else did you do to the engine while seals were being replaced? What seals? How far down did you strip the engine?

[Jack Stands]

Consider using a bore scope down a spark plug hole?

[larrym]

i b'ot a 2.2 engine once in which i discovered this problem (after i got it home)

figure out how to look into the bottoms of the cyls with a scope (costco & harbor sell 'em) - a nut or such might be laying in there - hopefully a steel nut and not some alloy or plastic item

in my case, i found a nut and was able to extract the steel nut with a magnet
.

[bryant4]

I stripped the engine down to the shroud removing all the CIS, Airbox, runners, etc
pulled the plugs
removed the valve covers
replaced the dist o-ring and
oil thermo o-ring
oil breather gasket
oil press sender

boroscope idea is a good one but not til Monday for me...

what to do til then?

this is a first for me. Not my first engine work ( I have 13 cars at this moment)
but the first time that I can't turn the engine over by hand because of an impediment in the case somewhere.


Crap

[jibmaster1]

These last two posters are 100% on to something! I was helping an ex-girlfriend a few years ago sell her 78' VW Bus. (I think we can all agree on the similarities of these motors without thread hacking lol!) The potential buyer did a PPI at a local shop. I knew the mechanic there and he was excellent in his workmanship. However, when he went to do a compression test a small nut 'fell' into the cylinder likely when he pulled the spark plugs. When he hit the ignition it stopped the piston from completing its stroke. At first he thought maybe a chunk of valve broke off, or possibly the stem had broken. At first it was "I'm so sorry, I might have to pull the heads off and it could cost $$". I said "no thanks". "I'll do some investigating myself on my time". Low and behold when I pulled off one of the heads a crushed piece of metal was gently lodged into the head of the cylinder. I knew it! At first it looked like the tip of a spark plug, but when I took the piece into his shop and showed him, he grabbed a 10mm nut and crushed into a press. Identical!! A very difficult conversation ensued that required the most effective forms of communication! I insisted I was bringing the whole motor back to him and he was to finish the job on his time. He agreed-although reluctant at first, and completed the job. Yes a long story here, BUT this symptom warrants you to seriously get some sort of scope down in there and look before you even consider starting the car to 'check' anything. Good luck.

[bryant4]

just ordered this and it will be here monday.
I do love Amazon Prime!

Amazon.com: Wall & Pipe Inspection Camera with 2.4" Color LCD Monitor: Home Improvement

[wayner]

Any chance a cylinder is full of fuel?

[manbridge 74]

Have you removed fan/alt to check and see if it was binding due to being recently re-installed?

Could it be the old "911-sat-and-carbon-flaked-off-and-is-now-between-head-and-piston?"

[bryant4]

Have you removed fan/alt to check and see if it was binding due to being recently re-installed?

the fan DOES rotate when the belt is loosened

Could it be the old "911-sat-and-carbon-flaked-off-and-is-now-between-head-and-piston?"
Okay, I have read about the whole carbon flaking off after sitting a long time issue, but this seems more 'solid' to me. I can't hear any noise but the stoppage is abrupt and reoccurs at the same spot in the rotation each time I try it.
Just spent an hour with a magnet on a flexible handle fishing in the plug holes while gently moving the fan but no luck.

I think I better do something on the Honey - do list this afternoon as this is driving me crazy

[Jesset100]

Check to see is if anything fell down in between the lower pulley and the crankcase. Brother when I bought my car I pulled various nuts and bolts from down there.

[boyt911sc]

Bryant,

Are you certain that all the lock washers for the runners were all accounted for during the removal? The nut/s would not be caught in between the valves and the head but the thin washers could slip in between this tiny space. Visual inspection is necessary to remove this aspect as a culprit.

As long as you have chain tensioners installed, you could manually turn the crank shaft in either direction. If there a very strong resistance against crank rotation, stop and inspect!!!! How much rotation you could get before the 'resistance' appears? Quarter revolution? Half revolution?

If I were in your shoes, I would inspect it by cylinder by cylinder. Back off the valve screws all the out and start the process. Keep us posted.

Tony

[bryant4]

Jesset100

found an extra shim down there!


Tony
I will take your advice and look for washers...
I do have the boroscope coming Monday, too.

I can't really imagine that a nut could fall down the plug hole by mistake as it is hard enuf to get in there on purpose.

The one idea that is beginning to haunt my aged memory is that I remember coming up short one nut when I pulled the cover off the oil breather and at the time I assumed it had fallen to the front side of the engine where I would find it later. There is a nasty awful chance that the nut could have gone down the hole as I was trying to slide the cover out.

I hope not.


So it is ok to MANUALLY go backwards a rotation or more?

please explain" Back off the valve screws all the out and start the process."

[Justin@Athens]

Hydrolock = bent rod? This is relevant to turning the motor backwards.

[bryant4]

So, I just rotated the fan a full rev BACKWARDS, gently by hand and it turns easily until it stops suddenly and won't turn any more unless I reverse direction one rev and it stops again.

My plugs are out and have been out so I don't really understand how there could be trapped liquid in there???


The one idea that is beginning to haunt my aged memory is that I remember coming up short one nut when I pulled the cover off the oil breather and at the time I assumed it had fallen to the front side of the engine where I would find it later. There is a nasty awful chance that the nut could have gone down the hole as I was trying to slide the cover out.



.

[Justin@Athens]

I am not saying you have a hydrolock type situation, it isn't really possible from what you describe. The reason I linked to that thread is because the chain tensioners only operate properly in one direction. Whether or not you can do significant damage by turning it backwards is not apparent to me, however I have a good inclination you don't want to find out the hard way!

[bryant4]

Aha, now I get your drift...
Per Tony's suggestion, I did rotate backwards but was only able to confirm that it stops turning that direction, also.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by bryant4

just ordered this and it will be here monday.
I do love Amazon Prime!

Amazon.com: Wall & Pipe Inspection Camera with 2.4" Color LCD Monitor: Home Improvement

I just noticed the Harbor Freight borescope #67979, is on sale for $10 more. It has carrying case and video output cable!! I think I will look at one tomorrow.