Need some help re: Ethics of Selling an "S" as real please comment !

[Gmund48]

I am throwing this out for comment:

An experience
I recently answered an Ad for a 911 S that was complete but had been stored for a while, I sent a deposit and had someone look at the car ( and paid a PCA member ) to give the car a good looking at. The "Broker" for the owner said there had been some engine work but the red shroud, fuel injection, etc was in place. After the initial visual onceover I was asked to forward more payment and did so, upon that receipt I had the car sent to a local Porsche Mechanic to fully check it out. It was to be transported across the country so It would be less expensive to have it be in running condition. Within a day I recieved a call from the mechanic that the car has a "T" Motor. We verified this then called the "broker" who says that the motor swap doesnt make the car a "NON-S" car. I can quote everyone that in that year you can order a T with all S options except the Motor.

The seller is in the position they did nothing wrong that it is an "S" 9 even witha T engine. I have spent a ton of time and money putting this togeather and since I have already purchased several Items for the car, I requested a significant refund for it having a "T" Motor. I didnt steal the car I payed by all accounts a fair price based on condition/needs and determined from all reliable sources.

I have retained my corporate laywer to pursue as being misled is not something I take kindly too. I really want a fair refund for the T engine being there instead of the "S" how much do you think that would be and should I continue to pursue ??

There has always been an ethical bond between sports car guys especially since this was advertised on an enthusiast site specifically as an "S"

Thanks


gmund48

[Early_S_Man]

Call your state's Attourney General's office (or have your lawyer do it) to see if inhtentional misrepresentation of a collectble car's status and condition can be grounds for a felony fraud case in your state. If two states are involved it could be a Federal fraud case,

I don't think a refund ... is anywhere NEAR enough penalty!!! Thje guy sounds like a 'con' artist who has been getting away with it for years, more than likely!

The 'cute' semantics lesson is a BIG clue that the guy knew exactly what might happen ... when the numbers got checked!

ps ...
Did your 'paid' PCA member refund his fee and offer any kind of apology? Did he represent him/herself as being knowlegable abour 911s? I think he/she should be reported to the PCA for misconduct! Is there any possibility he /she is a friend of the broker or owner?

I hope you learned that PCA membership is no guarantee of expertise or honesty!

The basic questions about VIN, engine number, and type number can be asked for in advance without need for a third party to be involved to verify authenticity.
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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa
1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler

[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 09-01-2001).]

[Jim Smolka]

If the was delivered from the factory and orginally titled as a S car, then it is an S car. I assume that there is a way to go back through the VIN number to see if it started out as a S car.

Now if the motor has been changed out, I feel that you should rec a refund of some amount. Sounds like the "broker" knows what the car is / is not and is not being very forthcomming. IMHO

[campbellcj]

Even an "S" car with a non-original "S" engine is worth less than a numbers-matching car. And this one with a "T" engine is worth, I would say, several $thousand less than a real numbers-matching "S". If it's not even an "S" chassis to begin with, then even worse. (Not to detract from the 911T, which is a very fine car, but we all know there is a wide spread in values between the T/E/S flavors.)

In other words, your damages are not only the difference in value between a "T" and "S" motor, you have to also factor in the diminshed value of an "S" car without its proper matching engine.

Gather up the facts - post the VIN and engine numbers and any other pertinent details - and have your lawyer chase this guy down in a hurry.

Good luck,
Chris C.

[This message has been edited by campbellcj (edited 09-01-2001).]

[diverdan]

"Some motor work," is indicative of a misleading statement b someone who is savy enough to state that "the red sheild and original mfi is still in position." A person with this much savy in all probability would be aware of the incorrect numbers on the case which was not disclosed. What's inside the case is undetermined. A case change is certainly out of the category of "some motor work."

However, legal shmegal being what it is damned expensive unless you go the attrorney general route or can square it up man to man. Good luck. Is this guy a legitimate broker? Titlejumper? He may not want trouble.

Good luck.

[911racer]

Hi Gmund48
I have access to the Porsche Cardex system. E-mail me the VIN number and I will check out the car's original specs.

stef.scheepers@porsche.de

[speeder]

This guy,("broker"), needs to be investigated with a baseball bat and a set of very large pliers. Oh, forgive my mood, I just got reamed myself on a long-distance transaction. First-time e-bay buyer, old motorcycle.
I hope like hell you get some relief from this guy. What state is he in? Maybe I can help. You did not say what year this vehicle is, but I'm assuming 70-73. Prices for nice original 911S's have definitely climbed high. I would go as far as to say that one can buy 2-3 perfect 911T's for the price of a good 911S. One could order a 911T with "S package" option- guages, fuchs rims and deco trim. Nice option, but since approximately 99% of 911T's sold in U.S. had it, it means NOTHING in the context of this case.
In the early 70's, Porsche sold probably 7 or 8 911T's for every S or E. There was a very significant difference in price and performance. Don't get me wrong- in certain ways the 911T was the "best" car for a heck of a lot of people and very respectable performance. Try to imagine if Porsche today sold a new 911 that only went 140 MPH instead of 175,(996 top speed). The car was absolutely the same car except for performance and a tiny badge on rear. Price would be $30,000 less than current model. ( proportionally correct to 911T:S pricing in 1972). They would sell 10-15 "T"'s for every "S". The "S" would be a rare animal when new, not to mention 30 years later.
So much for history lesson, you have been scammed and must get relief. If car you bought is a nice T, maybe keep it and get at least half your money back. If you are not very fluent in Porsches, it might be a better car for you, unless you can afford Jerry Seinfeld-type maintenence. These cars are getting old, and if regularly driven, even the good ones need a lot of care.
Good luck, keep us posted. I definitely think that you should Identify this seller, but talk to your lawyer and see if it's OK first. Wish you well, you're probably a gent by tone of letter.

[Don in Redondo]

If the original "S" engine in this car were to have thrown a rod, ruining the case and necessitating a case replacement, and in this situation a "T" case, but using all the remainning original "S" components ( cams, barrels, heads, etc.)........what would be the best way to confirm that the guts of the engine are still to "S" specifications?

My inclination would be to have the intake covers pulled and have a cam timing reading taken, in order to get a good idea of the internal contents, in a relatively quick and easy fashion.

Are there any better ways of determining the guts without complete disassembly?

[Early_S_Man]

The 'T' cylinders would be cast iron instead of Biral with aluminum fins. But, the cam lift at TDC overlap would be conclusive indication that 'T' cast pistons were't inside! The injection pump part number would also indicate an original 'S' pump put on a replacement case.

But, one drive around the block would tell for sure ... to someone who knows an 'S' engine characteristics!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa
1992 Dodge Dakota 5.2 4X4 parts hauler

[MRM]

IMHO you got conned. Ask for your money back and rescind the sale. Your corporate lawyer will probably tell you that this is a classic first year law student problem that is meant to illustrate that when the buyer doesn't get the benfit of what he bargained for, there is no contract. Other than rescinding the sale you may have other remedies available.

You may not want your usual corporate lawyer to handle this, though, you may need a litigator, and not one that's spent his life on high dollar comercial litigation or transactional work. You need a street fighting junkyard dog of a lawyer to go to the mats for you on this one. You might do well with one that has experience in small claims court.

Buying an "S" that has everything but an S engine is kind of like buying a 914/6 GT and getting an ordinary 914 and being told, hey, it has GT flairs and all the 914/6 options except the engine. Isn't that precisely the point?

Good luck and tell us how it goes.

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MRM 1984 Carrera Cab Eurospec

[This message has been edited by MRM (edited 09-03-2001).]

[Reg]

Originally posted by 911racer:
Hi Gmund48
I have access to the Porsche Cardex system. E-mail me the VIN number and I will check out the car's original specs.

stef.scheepers@porsche.de

With this cardex system can you match an exact chassis and engine number, to in fact know you have the original engine installed into your car from the factory?

I'd email you personally, but your email addy came back undeliverable.

I'd too be very upset if I were mislead in a sale of a car like that. My T looks like an S but I knew it was a T when I bought it. You should return the car if possible. If you cannot , enjoy it for what it is or sell it and chalk it up into experience. The money you'd pay on legal fees may well go into another car.

Good Luck

[SteveStromberg]

How about posting their name and address?
Steve

[Oldporsche]

Go for the guy's jugular. Don't mince words. Get you money back, all of it and damages, and sue for possession of the car, and give a healthy amount to the lawyer..

There was some knowledge by the "broker/seller" that the cars could be ordered in S trim. That doesn't make it an "S". If a an engine needed a new case, (minor engine work, NOT) then a knowledgeable owner would at least redo the engine numbers to make it an "S". With proper authorities permission of course. This would be done to preserve the authenticity of having an "S" car. If the numbers couldn't be changed to the original engine numbers then the "S" owner would seek an "S" case to make into a new motor.

Get this guy. A good junkyard dog type attorney with solid connections to the Bail bondsman community would be my choice!

Good luck, I really mean it.

David Duffield

[speeder]

What is the VIN of the car? Fifth digit is the model. 1=T,2=E,3=S. As for cardex, a call to Porsche in Atlanta should give you a quick answer to original engine # and all options. If they don't have it due to age of car, they will e-mail Germany for info. This service is free, done over the phone. Easiest way is to call dealer and get parts dept. guy to do this for you. Above post concerning case replacement is valid; however, check VIN first. If 5th digit is 1, you have a 911T and hopefully a lawsuit.

[Oldporsche]

Some second thoughts.

Please post the names of the broker and seller and their location as soon as you feel you are up to it.

There is a strong community interest here to prevent this from happening to any of us. It always helps the rest of us to know of whom you are dealing.

You have had an injustice perpetrated against you. You have acted in good faith. It is clear the other parties haven't.

Good luck to you,
David Duffield

[CamB]

I saw this over on Rennlist as well and I think there was a comment there that it might be a genuine S with a T motor. Only way to fix it is to swap back in an S motor and even then it won't be the original engine and will be forever scarred because of it.

I figure if it is a REAL S with a REAL S motor (non-matched), then that is pretty fair (but S's are getting to the stage where numbers need to match). The cost to buy an S engine, swap and sell the T engine should be an absolute minimum... This is way beyond buyer beware.

Put it this way, if it wasn't disclosed to you because it "doesn't matter", that it is kinda like asking the broker who sold it to you if he would mind if you swapped the AMG V8 out of his new Mercedes for the engine from a 180 (or whatever, insert car brand and engine choice here), cause it will still be an AMG....

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Cameron Baudinet
1975 911S (in bits)
1969 911T

[zotman72]

I just recently built a true MFI 2.4S engine from my 2.4MFI T motor core. The right S parts and machining cost me well over 6K, and that is getting some great deals from guys on this board. My labor was free but include that and you are well over $8K.


I think you need to make a face to face visit with this weasel and get some serious cash back!

Bill
I be pissed if I were you.

[Matt Smith]

Hey! I kinda like my T motor. They're not that bad, surely?

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'72 911 TE

[Matt Smith]

For sale: 1972 T engine. Will swap for fresh 908 mill or similar.