EPA Ends Ethanol Fuel?

[HarryD]

Could this be the end of E10?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/us/for-first-time-epa-proposes-reducing-ethanol-requirement-for-gas-mix.html?_r=0

[KNS]

They're actually listening to the end users - shocking. I hope it's for real.

[SilberUrS6]

Well, maybe SOMEBODY finally figured out that this is nothing but a wealth transfer from the have-nots to the holy-crap-I-have-grain-silos-full-of-cash agricultural corporations. As in, everybody who buys gas subsidizes big-time corn farmers and seed companies. And for what? Corn ethanol is just about break-even in the energy input:energy output ratio, and the cost per gallon is staggering.

That's just on the costs side. Now let's talk about the potential damage to fuel systems. That cost is also borne by the end user. A lose/lose for consumers, a big win for producers.

[Tippy]

As long as they don't touch E85. The power increase for cheap is awesome and worth the one time cost of switching over the fuel system to handle.

[RSBob]

This will certainly piss off Con-Agra and Monsanto. They might have to buy a few more congress people to change the laws back to their favor.

But as far as I am concerned, the faster ethanol disappears the better.

[Reiver]

Originally Posted by Tippy

As long as they don't touch E85. The power increase for cheap is awesome and worth the one time cost of switching over the fuel system to handle.

No, actually it is not...in the costs of diverted corn based food to fuel. It is one of the most cost inefficient programs ever and only exists thru subsidy.

[Schmierung]

"The Politics of dancing...oooh feeling good.."
I wish it were true, however I doubt that the lobbyists will let this happen. They are the ones who are heard, not us. We help pay the organizations to grow the corn, we help pay for the corn, we help pay to process corn to ethanol.....it really saves money???

[donlan]

Can't happen soon enough![if the powers that be will let it happen]....We wish.

[beren]

Shocking...but it won't take long for the lobbyists to work their magic.

[COLB]

Ethanol is not going anywhere.

This just puts the breaks on forcing refiners to move to 85/15 blends.

The issue is that the law mandated ethanol blending by volume (in millions of gallons/barrels) as opposed to a ratio of fuel refined/sold.

So as car mileage has increased, and the economy has reduced fuel usage, overall demand for gas has dropped, while the law anticipated that it would continue to rise. So now the ethanol mandate exceeds the volume of gasoline blends sold -- forcing refiners to up the ethanol percentage to meet the mandate.

That has been sort of fixed, but 90/10 is likely the norm for the foreseeable future.

[lindbhr]

Agreed.....and there are still major issues to move to E15.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Just out of curiosity, if E-85 ever does go mainstream, what would you have to do to make an older car run on it? I'm assuming fuel lines at least. For example, can older carbed cars/CIS/or mid eighties fuel injections- can they be tuned for it?, or does this require a complete conversion over to something like aftermarket EFI (like bitz-or something even with more controls) for tuneability?
Ron

[HarryD]

You can make a car run on anything that burns.

There are several issue to be addressed when you use ethanol.

1) Ethanol attacks elastomers (rubber) in the fuel system. Any rubber part in contact with the fuel thats not Viton suffers degradation and sooner or later, thats an expensive problem.

2) Ethanol is hygroscopic. Moisture absorbed by ethanol-laden fuel will corrode any ferrous parts in the fuel system and the Fuel Distributors are particularly vulnerable.

3) Pure gasoline has a 14.7/1 air fuel ratio for proper combustion. Pure ethanol is something like 9/1. This means you need to modify your fuel delivery system to make a much richer mixture.

4) 1.5 gallons of ethanol has the same energy content as 1.0 gallon of gasoline. This means that you need to use more ethanol per mile to make the same power.

[kidrock]

Just like Big Oil and Big Pharma, "Big Corn" is here to stay...like it or not.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Thanks!
R

[m110]

Originally Posted by HarryD

You can make a car run on anything that burns.

There are several issue to be addressed when you use ethanol.

1) Ethanol attacks elastomers (rubber) in the fuel system. Any rubber part in contact with the fuel thats not Viton suffers degradation and sooner or later, thats an expensive problem.

2) Ethanol is hygroscopic. Moisture absorbed by ethanol-laden fuel will corrode any ferrous parts in the fuel system and the Fuel Distributors are particularly vulnerable.

3) Pure gasoline has a 14.7/1 air fuel ratio for proper combustion. Pure ethanol is something like 9/1. This means you need to modify your fuel delivery system to make a much richer mixture.

4) 1.5 gallons of ethanol has the same energy content as 1.0 gallon of gasoline. This means that you need to use more ethanol per mile to make the same power.

Great info.
Why does it seem to be a more common choice for crazy turbo builds of late?

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by m110

Great info.
Why does it seem to be a more common choice for crazy turbo builds of late?

Ethanol has a higher octane number so you can go to higher compression ratios.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by m110

Great info.
Why does it seem to be a more common choice for crazy turbo builds of late?

Its latent heat of evaporation acts like an intercooler of sorts, reducing the charge-air temperatures, compared to gasolines.

[earossi]

There are also some other issues with Ethanol. As pointed out by Colb, ethanol is hydroscopic which means that it absorbs water. So why is this an issue? The phenom is called reversion. In order to produce gasoline that contains ethanol, the gasoline portion of the mixture is blended to a lower octane than would normally be the case if ethanol were not used. This is because ethanol is really a high octane component.

Stay with me. As long as ethanol remains mixed with gasoline, the octane blend is maintained……at 87, 89, 90, or 93 octane.

Ethanol fuel purchased from a service station that does not remove water from its underground storage tanks (all tanks have water in them) will absorb all the water that collects in the tank. It will collect water until the ethanol becomes super saturated with moisture. And, then what happens is that the super saturated mixture of water/ethanol will suddenly "drop out of solution" separating from the gasoline component. When this happens in the fuel tank of your car…….two poor things happen. The first is that the engine is suddenly forced to run on an octane lower than needed……producing knocking which is detrimental to engine life! And the second bad thing that happens is that eventually your fuel pump picks up the water that has fallen out of solution. The car will then fail to run since water cannot be atomized or burn. So, your engine dies. Now with all the water in your fuel system…..the corrosion mentioned by Colb becomes a real issue.

And, I can go on. But, the corn lobby was successful in convincing legislators that ethanol was "renewable" and home grown. Forget the fact that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than it delivers. But, I guess that is just politics, right?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by earossi

Ethanol fuel purchased from a service station that does not remove water from its underground storage tanks (all tanks have water in them) will absorb all the water that collects in the tank.

No, not at all. If there is ANY water in the tank, the ethanol in the gasoline will begin to migrate toward the water in the tank. The other direction doesn't happen at all - the reaction is essentially one-way. How do I know? I performed the experiment in college as an honors student in analytical chemistry. If ANY liquid water exists, ethanol will move to the water. If there is not liquid water, you can get a very small amount of water to go into E15, and a much smaller amount into E10.

Liquid water is a problem, yes, but not like you describe.