911 SC - lowering the front

[Flojo]

Hello!
I allow myself to open this thread
- as to not spoil the "right stance" thread
- and to keep track of this for myself
thank you.

Well, my SC was professionally stanced in Jan/2013 to regular euro hight.

I like the level at the rear but the front reads 66cm (aprox 26 inch) from floor to fender edge on both sides.
64cm would be great (aprox 25 inch).

I'd like to do the stancing/leveling myself and the pro does the fineadjustment.

If I drop the front, will the rear come up?

Originally Posted by Craig_D

The rear will not come up, but you'll have to realign the front end, as your toe angle will change when lowering the front.

Also, don't measure using the fender, they can be (and usually are) not identical. You need to measure at the chassis, to the ground.

You may also want to re-corner balance your car after you get it in the neighborhood of the stance you want. Nothing makes a 911 work right, like a good corner balance.

Good luck. Cheers.

Originally Posted by Trackrash

25" in the front will probably work well. I would adjust it to what ever height you want and drive it to make sure it is what you want.

Remember that as you lower the car in front, you will have more negative camber, which may or may not be a problem for your car. When you have it aligned you will find out if you can retain stock, or close to it, camber settings.

Lowered cars also have a problem with the front shocks bottoming out on bumps, causing a harsh ride. As long as you don't try to go to low you should be OK.

[Flojo]

OK, now I'd like to get technikal.

The Lever on both sides was woud up to about the top.
So I guess the torsion bars were installed in a way, that they already gave the major influence to the stance.

Loocking closer at the lever, I noticed that both sides had about 1,5 downturns.

Befor my oilcooler-install-testdrive, I gave both sides about 6 full downturns (by counting the winds).

when I came back and the car stood leveld on even ground I measured again to notice...
nothing.
no change... still 66cm.

Now please give me a clue.

[Flojo]

no one?

[boyt911sc]

Flo,

Could you post a picture of the front torsion bar retaining cap position? Something like this;



I re-read your post several times and my understanding is that you are not having success adjusting the front ride height. Technically, the ride height is measured from ground to center-line of the torsion bar axis. But for convenience, people use the fender lip to ground distance for measurement. Setting the four-corners ride heights according to your desire heights is easy to attain and could alter your corner weight balance which could not be critical to your needs.

Tony

[Flojo]

This should give you an idea.

Originally Posted by Flojo

..., I gave both sides about 6 full downturns (by counting the winds).

my mesurement is just a reference.
but using the same spot where the car stands, I would have expected to notice a change in hight.

I didn't.

Or do I have to wind it down all the way to get the "drop"?

[Sicklyscott]

Interested to hear more myself.

[porsche930dude]

did you drive the car after you adjusted it? i think you have your before and after picture backwards. either that or you raised the adjustment. if its bottomed out your going to have to reindex them. thats simple as unscrewing the adjuster and pulling the caps out and move the next notch.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Can you go take a pic of your current setup as it sits? I actually counted the clean threads on the pic you photoshopped, and it looked like you raised it 6-7 threads, but then I realized that was the pic boyt911sc posted! What does yours look like? I think I remember having a car once where I lowered the bolts and literally had to jump up and down in the trunk to make it "settle"
Ron

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by Flojo

This should give you an idea.




my mesurement is just a reference.
but using the same spot where the car stands, I would have expected to notice a change in hight.

I didn't.

Or do I have to wind it down all the way to get the "drop"?

Flo,

That's the picture of the front passenger suspension of my '78 SC track car with 16" wheel and fender height of approx. 25.25" from the ground to the fender lip.

Now, if I want to raise or increase the ride height, clockwise rotation of the adjusting bolt would do it. To lower the front, CCW rotation of the adjusting bolt would lower the ride height. Just remember these: clockwise rotation (+) goes up and counterclockwise rotation (-) goes down for the front suspension ride height adjustment. If you are out of adjustment range, you need to pull the cap out and re-index it. If I wanted to raise my ride height to 26", I won't be able to achieve it because I'm almost at the end of the max. adjustment unless I pull out the cap and re-index it.

Visualize torsion bar adjuster cap's arm in the picture as the A-arm. If the cap's arm goes up so does the the A-arm resulting to lower ride height. And vice versa.

Using your colored lines yellow and green, you turned the adjusting bolt CW (+) increasing your ride height. Was this your intention?

Tony

[Flojo]

No it was not ;-)

So if I turn it back to where it was (yellow) line, I'm at limit.
So I will have to pull the cap and notch it.

Thank you guys!!

[Sicklyscott]

Tony -

That was a great explanation, thank you.

So i understand correctly is this the process you would use to re-index the cap?

(assuming car is already off the ground and the cap arm is at it's lowest ride height setting)
1. Support a-arm at current height
2. Remove adjusting bolt (looks like there's a nut in there holding it in?)
3. Remove cap (any bolts here?)
4. Install cap closest to 4 o'clock (passenger side)
5. Re-install adjuster bolt

Seems fairly simple but I'm sure lots of cursing will be involved removing the cap and however that adjuster bolt is held in there.

[redridge]

you may not see a noticeable height difference when you turn the adj screw... if your suspention is original or not as new, It may take awhile to settle. Go for a drive and see if it did change the height.

[porsche930dude]

the cap should slide right off one the adjuster bolt is removed. when i did mine one side was simple but one side was rusted to the tortion bar so it took quite a bit of prying

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by Sicklyscott

Tony -

That was a great explanation, thank you.

So i understand correctly is this the process you would use to re-index the cap?

(assuming car is already off the ground and the cap arm is at it's lowest ride height setting)
1. Support a-arm at current height
2. Remove adjusting bolt (looks like there's a nut in there holding it in?)
3. Remove cap (any bolts here?)
4. Install cap closest to 4 o'clock (passenger side)
5. Re-install adjuster bolt

Seems fairly simple but I'm sure lots of cursing will be involved removing the cap and however that adjuster bolt is held in there.

Scott,

There is no nut involve in this operation just the adjusting bolt for the torsion bar cap. This is how I make my adjustments for the front ride height. I usually drive the car a few blocks away from my house to the school parking lot at the flattest (leveled) spot. The skip plate or cover was removed but the securing bolts for the sway bar were attached and torqued. Bring along a yard stick, a ratchet with an appropriate socket, a towel to lie on the ground.

Measure the ride height either use the fender lip or the axis of the front torsion bar as your reference point. This a decision you have to choose but for convenience people prefer the fender lip. Any change for example on the front passenger side's ride height (RH) would slightly affect the rear opposite corner (left rear corner). Since it is difficult to find a perfect flat and level spot, I do 2 measurements. The second measurement is parking the car in the same spot more or less but in the opposite direction to compensate the difference in levelness of the spot. Bring a notebook and write down the numbers. Do not memorize these numbers unless you have an excellent memory. You need numbers (measurements before and after, facing north & facing south (example only).

Review the numbers and if you are not completely satisfied, perform another adjustment and verify.

Since I have been using a particular spot in this parking lot, I had measured the ground level with a 5 feet level and used the parking lot during no school days. But if you have a level spot in your garage, that's better but you still have to drive the car a little bit to settle weight distribution after an adjustment and measure.

Tony

[Flojo]

tony, how do you remove the retaining-cap without it all getting in the eye (I fear).
Because I don't see how to get the srew all way out of it (headscratch)
And if done, how do you pre-torque the torsion bar?

[Sicklyscott]

Thanks Tony. I think I'm missing something here then. The bolt goes from the ground up to the fender meaning that the bolt head is on the bottom. When you loosen it to adjust the end cap the bolt actually doesn't back itself out of the hole, it just moves the end cap up and down. Correct? It would mean than that there is something holding the bolt to the a-arm (is that what it goes through?). if it weren't the case wouldn't you see a space between the bolt end and the body?

Or am I over thinking this and the reason it stays int he correct position without falling out because the weight of the car keeps it intact since the wheel wants to press the end cap up (from say 4 o'clock to 2 o'clock)?

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Scott,

There is no nut involve in this operation just the adjusting bolt for the torsion bar cap. This is how I make my adjustments for the front ride height. I usually drive the car a few blocks away from my house to the school parking lot at the flattest (leveled) spot. The skip plate or cover was removed but the securing bolts for the sway bar were attached and torqued. Bring along a yard stick, a ratchet with an appropriate socket, a towel to lie on the ground.

Measure the ride height either use the fender lip or the axis of the front torsion bar as your reference point. This a decision you have to choose but for convenience people prefer the fender lip. Any change for example on the front passenger side's ride height (RH) would slightly affect the rear opposite corner (left rear corner). Since it is difficult to find a perfect flat and level spot, I do 2 measurements. The second measurement is parking the car in the same spot more or less but in the opposite direction to compensate the difference in levelness of the spot. Bring a notebook and write down the numbers. Do not memorize these numbers unless you have an excellent memory. You need numbers (measurements before and after, facing north & facing south (example only).

Review the numbers and if you are not completely satisfied, perform another adjustment and verify.

Since I have been using a particular spot in this parking lot, I had measured the ground level with a 5 feet level and used the parking lot during no school days. But if you have a level spot in your garage, that's better but you still have to drive the car a little bit to settle weight distribution after an adjustment and measure.

Tony

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by Flojo

tony, how do you remove the retaining-cap without it all getting in the eye (I fear).
Because I don't see how to get the srew all way out of it (headscratch)
And if done, how do you pre-torque the torsion bar?

Flo,

Jack up the front of the car and remove the skip plate. If you don't have a hydraulic lift and using floor jack, use multiple level of protections by using jack stands to support the front end and wooden blocks (secondary protection). I rather err on the caution side than be sorry later. Safety is first and foremost.

With the front end of the car safely secured by jack stands and wooden blocks, loosen and remove the four (4) securing bolts of the skip plate. After successfully removing the skip plate or cover, install the fasteners (bolts) back. Removing the front tires would create more room and better access to the torsion bar cap plus less load on the A-arm. Spray some penetrating oil to the adjusting screw/bolt and remove. Pay attention on the position or orientation of the torsion bar cap before loosening/removing the bolt. Make a sketch or notation or take a picture. This could come handy if you need to re-index the cap.

After you have removed the adjusting bolt, next is to pull out the cap. It may come off easily or it could be stuck!!!!! This all depends how the cap sits at the end of the front torsion bar. If you could get the cap off, everything next would be easy sailing. Remember one thing, you will remove the cap only if you need to re-index the cap and install it back after cleaning it and putting some anti-seize lubricant on
the cap.

The weight of the A-arm plus tire (optional) will put some twist or torque on the front torsion bar. After removing the adjusting bolt that prevents the cap from coming off the end of the TB, removal is simply pulling it out toward the rear direction. You want to remove the the cap with the front torsion bar in situ. Sometimes it is stuck and needs some persuasion to come off. If the TB come off with the cap, don't be alarmed. It is part of the experience and could be fixed easily. Let's find out if you could remove the cap without disturbing the TB.

Keep us posted.

Tony

[Flojo]

Many thanks!

"After you have removed the adjusting bolt, ..."

I just tried.
No success.
How is it supposed to come out?!

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by Flojo

Many thanks!

"After you have removed the adjusting bolt, ..."

I just tried.
No success.
How is it supposed to come out?!

Flo,

After you have removed the adjusting bolt, there is nothing holding the cap except the rust and corrosion between the cap and end spline of the front TB. Try to spray some penetrating oil and tap the cap to loosen or break the adhesion. Or apply some heat around the cap and tap it to get loosen.

The worse scenario is that the cap is stuck solid and won't budge out. Pry out and tap the cap. Be patience. Hit the arm or lever of the cap with a hammer and see if it gets lose. As a last resort, you have to pull out the TB out with the cap in place. Keep us posted.

Tony

[Flojo]

Its the bolt that doesn't come out :-(