Concours, what do they judge ?

[donporfi]

What do they judge in a car concours ?
Originality or restoration ?
In this example what car would get more points:
1.- Car is a 73 was purchased and after a couple miles of driving was stored because the owner died. After 40 years the heirs take it out clean it. The paint is not perfect, it is a little faded . The tires are cracked and do not hold air. All the rubber is the same as the tires, the interiors are in good condition.
I remember seeing such a car a couple of years ago in California during the Ventura show.

2.- Car is restored using modern paint and it shines . All details have been taken care of, it is spotless. New parts were used.

OK, which car gets more points the restored one or the original one ?

[304065]

They compete in different classes (at least in PCA). So the answer is, the restored cars compete against the restored under their rules, and the preservation compete against the preservation.

Wouldn't be fair to either group if they were mixed in.

[Reiver]

Depends upon the type of event and the class it is entered in.
In a preservation class the untouched car would do very well.
If you are restoring the car then use original restored parts whenever possible and restore to the factory standard if you are competing in Porsche events.
Over restoring has passed it's zenith in many events.

[daleflesburg]

In many local PCA concours, originality is not the most important, cleanliness is. Many will judge the car based on overall appearance, and how clean it is. A dirty engine or dirty front trunk will weigh more against you than having a non original (to the model year) part on the car. All parts should be originally from a Porsche or look like they could be. High mileage and age have an advantage over a showroom new car.

Now, when you get to some national events and to the Parade, the rules tighten and the winning cars have been taken apart and cleaned and repaired to better than new, and then reassembled, and only they are trailered to the event and may never run. Our local events require that you drive the car to the event and wash it or do final cleaning once you are there.

They can be fun and frustrating at the same time. Keeping a car concours clean is easier than getting it that way in the first place.

[Reiver]

Dale is correct on the cleanliness issue. If you go to a 'French' Concours it counts a great deal.

If two cars are very well presented and very much alike it basically comes down to the cleaner vehicle, that's just what happens.

A guy with a white glove wiping a layer of shiny armourall off a hose and holding his finger up like he discovered Amelia Earharts crash site.

[JohnJL]

your wallet and inverse proportional charisma

[Jack Stands]

Many, many years ago, a national PCA concours judge told me that one of the first things she did was to reach under the dash and swipe her hand over the top of the radio to look for dust and dirt. Quickly separates the men from the boys at the concours.

Concours is a sickness that it not easily cured, but it's fun to see folks work on the cars while prepping. It certainly doesn't hurt to have a clean car, but it's up to you how far you want to go!

[IslandHopper]

It depends on in which concours you are entered. At every concours however, there is usually a team of judges called a panel, and each one is responsible for inspecting a different element and judging accordingly. For an average concours in which a Porsche of "concours caliber" would be entered, however, these responsibilities would be as follows:

Judge #1 is responsible for counting the number of q-tips that the owner and/or detail team used in the final cleaning of the vehicle, once the vehicle was parked for judging. 1 point is given for each q-tip that has been used, and shows no sign lf ANY dirt on them. Q-tips that are used prior to the vehicle coming to a complete stop at it's final judging post are deducted from this count, as are ANY q-tip's that show signs that it actually removed any dirt from said vehicle. The vehicle should never be dirty. Ever. Even before judging

Judge #2 is responsible for looking at EVERY nut, bolt, hose, tire, switch, knob, piece of glass, body panel, etc. for ANY sign that the vehicle has actually EXISTED since its orignal production date. The vehicles must be preserved in an essential state of time-stasis to truly be considered concours ready. The effects of aging weigh heavily on the point tally, however, rare vehicles that exhibit signs of REVERSE aging earn extra points.

Judge #3 is solely responsible for interrogating the owner of the vehicle in question (while the other judges are looking over their respective elements) to make sure that no enjoyment whatsoever was had by the owner from actually driving the vehicle. Ever. Under any circumstance. Any enjoyment from driving the vehicle as orignally intended by its designers and subsequent construction is looked upon as a serious offense and points are deducted accordingly.

Hope that answers your question.

My P-cars unfortunately, unworthy of concours presentation or scrutiny, are forced to spend their pitiful lives in actual use. Heathen, un-mannered beasts who's only recourse is to roam the winding highways of the California coast, collecting dust and dirt and bugs, suffering rock chips and fading, while depleting our earth of fossil fuels and being further ravaged by the effects of freedom and fun, only to be parked, un-washed and left to dream a constant torment "oh, if only a trailer queen were I".

Such is their fate.

[tirwin]

^^^ Golf clap to you sir!

[304065]

LOL you guys need to spend more time at an ACTUAL concours.

You can drive your car 900 miles each way to and from a concours event and have it look like this:



And then enter it looking like this:



And you get to meet lots of great people who care passionately for our cars. The vast, vast majority of whom drove to the event and yes, actually drive their cars!



In PCA there are multiple levels of concours:

Restoration-- all out restos to the way they left the factory.

Preparation-- Here is a direct quote from the rule book: "The grouping “preservation” implies that the entered Porsche has been maintained in its original condition, with evidence that the automobile has been reasonably used (driven) and not simply stored. This group is for automobiles 21 model years and older. A demerit will be given for automobiles that are not driven to the Parade."

Preservation-- all original cars that have survived the ravages of time. Rock chips and all.

Performance-- pure race cars.

There are also multiple subdivisions, again quoting from the rule book:

Full concours are judged including the undercarriage,

Touring - exterior, interior, engine and storage compartments are judged; undercarriage (chassis front/rear is not judged) and

Street- exterior and interior only are judged (chassis front/rear, engine and storage compartments are not judged).

Anyway, hope that helps clarify what is a pretty common misconception in our community-- that the cars are all trailer queens. It's pretty cool to see a guy drive across eight states, win the concours and then go out and autocross like he stole it! And that's what it's all about, there are many different ways to spell fun.

[GeorgeK]

All very true, but us peasants have less laughs reading yours than Islandhopper description...

[ClickClickBoom]

Mine has dirt and filth in places that would make the good Dr proud!

[sand_man]

Laughing hysterically at this:

Originally Posted by JohnJL

your wallet and inverse proportional charisma

and this:

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

...My P-cars unfortunately, unworthy of concours presentation or scrutiny, are forced to spend their pitiful lives in actual use. Heathen, un-mannered beasts who's only recourse is to roam the winding highways of the California coast, collecting dust and dirt and bugs, suffering rock chips and fading, while depleting our earth of fossil fuels and being further ravaged by the effects of freedom and fun, only to be parked, un-washed and left to dream a constant torment "oh, if only a trailer queen were I".

Such is their fate.

I'm certainly in the "IslandHopper camp". But I have a feeling the reality is what user 304065 described. There is likely a category for anyone/everyone.

[ClickClickBoom]

Went rain driving:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHDIF2WxOHA&sns=em

[MrBonus]

Interesting thread. I've kicked around entering my car in some regional events. I need to repair some of the leather on the seat bolster and clean up my undercarriage but I was always curious how they are judged.

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by MrBonus

Interesting thread. I've kicked around entering my car in some regional events. I need to repair some of the leather on the seat bolster and clean up my undercarriage but I was always curious how they are judged.

Duct tape, and spray the bottom with simple green and drive in the rain.....

[MrBonus]

Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom

Duct tape, and spray the bottom with simple green and drive in the rain.....

On an aside, I'd love to see your FJ40! I've always loved those.

[porschenut]

Originality is normally relevant at only the national level. Local concours events are nothing more than detailing contests.

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by MrBonus

On an aside, I'd love to see your FJ40! I've always loved those.

Enough on my turbo diesel install/swap to make your eyes bleed:
FJ to BJ mutation? | IH8MUD Forum

[daleflesburg]

I too have had fun at concours at the local PCA level and with other "judged" auto shows and "cruise in's". I really like a show like the Geneva Concours where the PCA/Chi has a display and a peoples choice.

And with my 74 911, which was just finished about a year ago, and which I drove last summer on weekends only and put on 2000 miles on it including three trips to Chicago for some car shows, I won some recognition (actually a first place in the top only category). I plan to do it again this year, but I will never be a real serious competitor at Parade level. The overall winner at the Parade last year was a Chicago car that a "real serious concours guy" spent a whole year prepping on the car. Engine out, etc down to the tub, cleaned everything and reassembled the car. It was far dirtier when it left the factory. He loves it though! Good for him.

By the way, it was a real ego trip to have other Porsche people like the car I spent about 5 years on. Most people around here are Mopar fans and do not know what country a Porsche comes from.