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-   -   2.7 with new MSD 8524 and coil - missing badly (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/804282-2-7-new-msd-8524-coil-missing-badly.html)

wwest 04-11-2014 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snbush67 (Post 8010090)
Great! It looks like you had an intermittent connection due to breaks in the wire, hope that is it and you can get back to enjoying you car. I'm not really sure if anyone else is paying attention still.

I give it about a 0.01% probability of being the problem.

snbush67 04-11-2014 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 8010141)
I give it about a 0.01% probability of being the problem.

You are discounting a faulty coil wire as the source of the symptoms he is describing?

wwest 04-11-2014 08:13 PM

Absolutely!

One of the symptoms is backfiring, most common cause would be A/F mixture "ignition" while the intake valve is still open. Hard to have backfire if the HV never reaches the distributor.

Over the years I have all to often used to much force and separated the HV wire end connector. Pushed the wire back into distributor/coil tower, DRIVE until purchase new wire. If the wire center core is within <0.10" of the distributor/coil contact it will "jump" just fine.

snbush67 04-11-2014 09:11 PM

Oh well, thanks for politely giving him a 0.01% chance.

If an engine backfires, stumbles etc. could it be a result of unburnt fuel from the previous revolution?

Orange911S 04-12-2014 06:19 AM

OK, the wire turned out to be a false fix. I got it in, it started up and ran a little rough, but I figured that was due to poor timing. I drove about 10 miles on back roads and it was OK.
After helping my son carry his new fridge up the stairs into his condo I decided to run to an auto parts store and pick up a timing light and dwell meter. Well a timing light is easier to find than a dwell meter.
Pulling into the third auto parts store the car started backfiring like crazy. After I came out I decided to try to get it home on back roads. This only made it about half a mile. I was backfiring so bad people were running for cover thinking it was a gang shoot out.
I got help pushing it into the lot of a 7-11 and popped the hood. I checked the connections again, but did not have any success. A friendly guy stopped to help and we checked for spark. We were getting no spark to the distributor. After figuring that the connections were all good we isolated the problem to the coil.
I called my wife and had her bring over the old Bosch coil that I had taken out with the MSD upgrade. I got the old one installed and it fired right up and ran like a champ all the way home. What I thought were misses before were likely shorts in the coil. I have read of guys getting bad coils before and I guess it was my turn.
The MSD was an 8222 High Vibration Blaster Coil. I just printed out the label for the RMA. I am hoping MSD will supply a replacement.

I have read that the old Bosch is not the way to go with the MSD ignition so I will be replacing it with a new MSD soon.

wwest 04-12-2014 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snbush67 (Post 8010731)
Oh well, thanks for politely giving him a 0.01% chance.

If an engine backfires, stumbles etc. could it be a result of unburnt fuel from the previous revolution?

"Back"-firing into the EXHAUST?

Mixture ignites as the exhaust valve opens?

Possible.....

But I'm still not buying into the inability for the spark to jump that "broken" HV connection.

wwest 04-12-2014 06:25 AM

Ah, vindication....

wwest 04-12-2014 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T77911S (Post 7994570)
points are fine. more reliable. i ran my 77 for 10 yrs and i think i changed the points once.


the gap is not critical,

Not critical insofar as firing the MSD, but "dwell" is very critical insofar as the rotor position when the plug is fired.

but do make sure they open and close completely. i would check it.
the bushing can wear down and the points wont open.

i do not know what the 8524 is. i looked it up and a distributor came up. did you replace coil too. i dont knos this unit so i dont know how it should be wired. does it have a dedicated wire that runs to the battery? were did you connect it? does it have a dedicated pair to the coil? is the coil still grounded? bob's questions on grounds. marks question on triggering.

what about timing? advance working?

plug wires OK? check for arcs and sparks at night with all the lights off and engine running.
if you have a multimeter ohm them out. cap and rotor good? how do the plugs look?
the wire form the dist to the CD came get brittle and crack and short out.

outside of that it sounds like fuel or an air leak.

The distributor cam, points, are designed such that the rotor "contact" will be positionally correct for firing the "selected" plug. So DWELL must be correctly set, 65-70%

wwest 04-12-2014 07:10 AM

I don't understand, completely, why anyone could design, or recommend (Wayne?) that a CDI system use an "I" core ignition coil. An "I" core coil is completely appropriate for a Kettering ignition system wherein the spark energy is stored within the coil's magnetic field PRIOR to plug firing, No high efficiency or QUICK energy "transformation" from the coil primary to secondary required.

Not so with CDI, the need to transfer spark energy from the primary winding to the secondary winding is co-incident with plug firing. That, in turn, results in the need for the coil to act as a transformer, QUICKLY accepting energy flow into the primary. The CDI's high voltage output, 300-500 volts, over comes primary winding inductance, while the E&I core laminations provide a highly efficient "closed" magnetic field, coupling the energy into the secondary more efficiently (~30%) than would a simple "I" coil open magnetic field "path".

wwest 04-12-2014 07:14 AM

Use one of these...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1397315605.jpg

wwest 04-12-2014 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange911S (Post 8011078)
OK, the wire turned out to be a false fix. I got it in, it started up and ran a little rough, but I figured that was due to poor timing. I drove about 10 miles on back roads and it was OK.
After helping my son carry his new fridge up the stairs into his condo I decided to run to an auto parts store and pick up a timing light and dwell meter. Well a timing light is easier to find than a dwell meter.
Pulling into the third auto parts store the car started backfiring like crazy. After I came out I decided to try to get it home on back roads. This only made it about half a mile. I was backfiring so bad people were running for cover thinking it was a gang shoot out.
I got help pushing it into the lot of a 7-11 and popped the hood. I checked the connections again, but did not have any success. A friendly guy stopped to help and we checked for spark. We were getting no spark to the distributor. After figuring that the connections were all good we isolated the problem to the coil.
I called my wife and had her bring over the old Bosch coil that I had taken out with the MSD upgrade. I got the old one installed and it fired right up and ran like a champ all the way home. What I thought were misses before were likely shorts in the coil. I have read of guys getting bad coils before and I guess it was my turn.
The MSD was an 8222 High Vibration Blaster Coil. I just printed out the label for the RMA. I am hoping MSD will supply a replacement.

I have read that the old Bosch is not the way to go with the MSD ignition so I will be replacing it with a new MSD soon.

Heads up!

Ford, for the past 2-3 years, have been replacing, under warranty, spark plugs, coils (COP), catalytic converters, even engines, as a result of plug gap no-fires. CAC condensate (water) ingestion results in compression pressures well above design specifications.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1397316058.jpg

Other than manufacturing defects the most likely cause for ignition coil failures is internal "flashovers", the insulative resistance for spark jumping from secondary to primary is lower than the design path, coil/distributor/rotor/HV wires/spark plug.

An out-of-position rotor due to improper dwell might well result in coil internal FLASHOVERS.

wwest 04-12-2014 07:41 AM

"...This was brought on by a no-start issue....."

Ignition points rubbing block worn down enough to increase the dwell to >90% and the 3 wire CDI system's input signal "anti-bounce" filter capacitor/network filled in the <10% "gap" = NO FIRE.

New MSD has less filtering so it "fires" but rotor mis-positioning (>90% dwell) results in enough plug no-fires that coil finally fails due to internal carbon path formed by multiple internal flashovers.

Pull the HV wire out of the MSD coil and watch the spark jump THROUGH the coil tower sidewall to the coil ground terminal as you crank the engine.

dicklague 04-12-2014 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwest (Post 8011155)

or these:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1397318024.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1397318060.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1397318120.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1397318145.jpg

wwest 04-12-2014 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicklague (Post 8011212)

I tend to have preference for a HV connection DEEP inside the HV insulating tower.

wwest 04-12-2014 08:09 AM

OP:

Please check the point dwell and set it correctly, 65-70%, if needed, then check/set the timing by rotating the distributor.

And please post the results...SmileWavy

wwest 04-12-2014 08:56 AM

....says it ALL...!

http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Coils/Race/8222_-_High_Vibration_Blaster_Coil.aspx

100:1 turns ratio, maximum voltage, 45,000 volts.

MSD 6425, 530 volts output, 100:1 ratio 53,000 volts!

8222 MSD coil was designed, obviously, for use in a Kettering ignition system.

With a Kettering system the possibility for internal flashovers and the resulting carbon tracking is minimized via the condenser limiting the rise time of the ignition voltage. The spark plug wil often, or mostly, fire before the maximum voltage, in this case 45,000 volts, is reached.

With CDI the maximum spark voltage is reached virtually INSTANTLY in comparison. The second high voltage, in this case 53,000 volts, risetime is limited ONLY by the coil's inductance.

Another strong reason for NEVER using an ignition coil designed for a Kettering system with a CDI system.

I would have though the MSD engineers would know better.

Orange911S 04-14-2014 03:05 PM

The episode Friday night was due to me searching for a dwell meter.
It arrives tomorrow from Amazon so my son and I will work on the points gap, dwell and timing tomorrow night.
I did drive the car Saturday and had some misses at high RPMs at the end of an eight mile drive. Then on the way home I got my backfires again after a brief run on the freeway. I figured that I would just stop driving until the points and timing was done.
I thought about dropping in an electronic replacement for the points like the Pertonix Ignitor II, but I am tired of throwing parts at this problem.

dicklague 04-14-2014 04:06 PM

set the dwell and points first. See if that makes it work.

Then think about the Pertronix. I have found it to be a great upgrade for a car with points.

john walker's workshop 04-14-2014 05:23 PM

or just trash can the MSD..........

Orange911S 04-17-2014 03:39 PM

Last night we made progress on the dwell and timing. The max we could get the dwell to was 29, the timing at idle is fine and we are 34 at 6000.

Setting the dwell is a pain and I will be looking up a Pertronix very soon.
In the trip to the gym and back it ran OK, but I didn't push it and on the way back at over 3200 RPMs I sensed it missing a little.

Could this be arcing in the old spark plug cables? so it that I need to replace the plugs and go to a wider gap? I was not having these issues before the new MSD and coil so I am trying to work my way through the system.

I am running the old coil since the MSD fried and I have not received the replacement yet.

Any thoughts?


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