Non-working AC thread #3141592

[speednme1]

Originally Posted by wwest

Again, as good as Griffith's products are, they do not address the MRT factor, our "greenhouse glass". Even 68F will not be comfortable if the sun is blazing down on you and/or parts of the interior surfaces.

Let me get this straight, an AC system is suppose to cool right? Griffths system does exactly that. Why would his or anybody else's system address MRT factor? The owner of the vehicle has the option to tint in the hopes of keeping the temp down during stationary times. We all should know that tints help with temp. A front reflective sun shade might work as well....but that has nothing to do with the AC..and why it may or may not work.

In a modern car, an AC may have an auto function. It continuously monitors the temp in the cabin and adjust. THESE ARE NOT MODERN CARS OR MODERN AC SYSTEMS. STOP TRYING TO COMPARE SYSTEMS. Your adding variables that have nothing to do with cooling in these old girls...keep it simple...

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Wow, seriously? As a diagnostic tool (you know, something like DATA COLLECTION), vent temps are all that matter. They are the final product.

Yes, vent temperatures as a diagnostic tool, a measure of A/C cooling capacity, all well and good. But that's only one factor when considering the overall human comfort equation.

Cabin temps are a result of the vent temps, and without low vent temps, you aren't going to get cabin temps down. I thought everyone understood this. The lack of wwest's comprehension is stunning, even now.

As I've been saying, trying to get my point across, cabin temps, cabin AIR temps, are not the end all be all of the human comfort equation.

If you have the sun shining on you, directly, then really cool air from the vents is very nice.

No, cool air does not bring the human comfort equation into balance, cool airflow to the face and upper simply adds to the discomfort level.

But wwest thinks mid-70s is "comfortable".

Put in the correct context, I think you would agree. In an air conditioned home you can move away from the MRT effects and therefore be quite comfortable at 75-78F.

ANd thinks everyone else is "comfortable" at that temp too, and cannot grasp that some of us want the cabin to be closer to, ohhh, 68-70 degrees.

" want the cabin" was not the context. Even so, assuming other factors were in balance, most of use would be discomforted below 70F.

To the OP - this isn't about sniping - it's about archived info. Some other poor sap might actually take wwest's suggestions seriously, which is why he so thoroughly screws up every AC thread - so he can peddle his foolish "solution" to 911 AC. Just a casual stroll around his posts will show a pattern of usurping threads to pointedly NOT answer the technical question, but to push his brand of AC "repair". He's done it to you here, as well.

Did you know that Pelican actually suggests adding a cooling fan to the rear lid condenser?

[Ronnie's.930]

^^^ wwest, your assumptions about general human comfort standards, and the idea that cool/cold air blowing on one's person (in hot/humid weather - aka: when a/c is most used) increases discomfort levels, are way off base. How can you assume to speak to the comfort needs of all human beings living in every imaginable climate? Get real, man - aren't you feeling the pinch of embarrassment over the absurdity of your remarks?

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by wwest

"...75F would be perfectly suitable..."

Provided the factory A/C system could get "there", but alas, it cannot, not even with Griffiths FULL aftermarket A/C enhancement product set.

Originally Posted by wwest

Have you actually read and comprehend my position?

I was not denigrating your system,

Saying that Griff's system is not capably of cooling a 911 interior to a measly 75 degrees, even with ambient temps above 90, is denigration - plain and simple.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

aren't you feeling the pinch of embarrassment over the absurdity of your remarks?

No, he doesn't. He knows better than everyone what folks need and want. And he has a "solution" to make sure you get what he, errr, you want.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

^^^ wwest, your assumptions about general human comfort standards, and the idea that cool/cold air blowing on one's person (in hot/humid weather - aka: when a/c is most used) increases discomfort levels, are way off base.

How can you assume to speak to the comfort needs of all human beings living in every imaginable climate?

KNOWLEDGE, book learn'n...

Get real, man - aren't you feeling the pinch of embarrassment over the absurdity of your remarks?

Embarrassed, no, not even for the ignorant. Lots of reading to do...


http://www.energy.wsu.edu/Documents/10_spr_iaq_nl.pdf

Manipulate the chart yourself...

Try setting the air temperature to 0 Centigrade and the air movement/flow anywhere on the chart...

http://wiki.naturalfrequency.com/wiki/Human_Comfort

Page 11...

http://www.labeee.ufsc.br/antigo/arquivos/publicacoes/Thermal_Booklet.pdf

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

Saying that Griff's system is not capably of cooling a 911 interior to a measly 75 degrees, even with ambient temps above 90, is denigration - plain and simple.

There we go again, ambient temps are not the singular issue in the human comfort equation.

Home, window air conditioner. Enough cooling BTUs for the entire room or not enough so you must set closely in the dry/cool (""icebox" cold?) "discomforting" outflow in order to be "comfortable".

Which would YOU choose?

Be that as it may, has anyone, ANYONE, done enough of a survey of the average cabin temperature of an air-cooled pre-1989 911 with A/C in 90F climate?

Inclusive of MRT?

Again, I'm not saying Griffiths is at fault, their system will supply a more than plentiful level of cooling airflow, even COLD, discomforting airflow if you are attempting to bring the cabin, on the average, down to 75F in a HOT climate and BRIGHT sunlight.

Overcoming that problem requires addressing something more than just surrounding air temperature. Beginning with window tint, even windshield film now that a clear one is available. Haven't I seen pictures of owners applying products like DynaMat to help keep the radiant effects surpressed?

You will never reach the level of a typical Lexus LS, but some progress can be had at relatively low cost.

[Ronnie's.930]

West, rather than rely on your own narrow ideas about "comfort", and on what you can mine out of books and papers on the subject, why don't you ask 911 owners with modified a/c systems if they are "discomforted" by the cold air blowing out of the vents?

As I have stated, I have frigid vent temps which make the whole intererior feel cold, even on hot and humid days. I love it, and so does anyone that rides along with me - they are amazed at the air quality in my car and comment that it is superior to many modern vehicles they are familiar with.

Believe it or not, to anyone motivated to modify their 911 a/c systems, very cold air blowing out of the vents is good, and if it is cold enough in the car that the thermostat can be turned to less than max, then we're talking ultimate success.

BTW, why does the comfort level that other 911 owners experience matter to you? You do not have a highly modified 911 a/c system blowing cold air in your face, and are thus not suffering what you call "discomfort" from such, so what has sparked your interest and concern?

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

West, rather than rely on your own narrow ideas about "comfort", and on what you can mine out of books and papers on the subject, why don't you ask 911 owners with modified a/c systems if they are "discomforted" by the cold air blowing out of the vents?

ALL 911 owners are HUMAN, ergo...

As I have stated, I have frigid vent temps which make the whole intererior feel cold, even on hot and humid days.

Your words, "frigid vent temps" BRrrrr, SHIVERING, "make the whole interior feel cold". FRIGID...that has to be discomforting! COLD! not just cool, not "comfortable"? Why would anyone wish to drive along for hours, or even 10-15 minutes, setting there in a COLD draft?

I love it, and so does anyone that rides along with me - they are amazed at the air quality in my car and comment that it is superior to many modern vehicles they are familiar with.

Sorry, no sale.

Believe it or not, to anyone motivated to modify their 911 a/c systems, very cold air blowing out of the vents is good,

Yes, but only until the cabin air, and interior surfaces, is cooled down to a reasonable comfort level. Have you driven any modern car with an automatic climate control system? Note that in ALL cases as the cabin cools to closer and closer to your comfort level, air temperature setpoint, the blower speed gets lower and lower, coincident with system outflow temperature being moderated, warming.

That cannot be done in your 911 since the cabin air can never reach your comfort level, assuming OAT >90F and BRIGHT sunlight.

and if it is cold enough in the car that the thermostat can be turned to less than max, then we're talking ultimate success.

BTW, why does the comfort level that other 911 owners experience matter to you? You do not have a highly modified 911 a/c system blowing cold air in your face, and are thus not suffering what you call "discomfort" from such, so what has sparked your interest and concern?

While not "highly" modified(***1), I find myself wishing, searching for a way to reduce the discomfort level caused by cool and dry airflow to my, and my wife's, face and upper body. Thinking of using a SPAL() fan instead of the blower wheel for A/C evaporator airflow..reverse the airflow(***2) direction once I switch from COLD system outflow for initial cabin cooldown. Cool/dry high velocity(911 requirement) airflow is not as discomforting from the footwell.

***1 My A/C modifications have centered on increasing the system's refrigerant condensing capacity in low speed stop and go traffic, the MAJOR shortcoming of the factory system.

***2 Double WIN! Downward airflow direction would help to force condensate down and out the provided drain, instead of right back into our face. Maybe triple win, no debris "sucked" onto the evaporator WET side and maybe "glued" in place there.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I have given up on him as well.

I quoted you again to note that this really is the only reasonable course of action - wwest's most recent post in this thread, where he offered line-item nonsense, and even falsehoods, to a post of mine, really emphasizes how useless interacting with this guy really is.

And to Eric, yep, I must be one slow learning MF!!!

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

I quoted you again to note that this really is the only reasonable course of action - wwest's most recent post in this thread, where he offered line-item nonsense, and even falsehoods, to a post of mine, really emphasizes how useless interacting with this guy really is.

And to Eric, yep, I must be one slow learning MF!!!

Accusing someone, anyone, of offering nonsense, telling falsehoods is a empty, groundless, accusation absent a statement making your case.

Forthcoming foundation for the accusation or just more Cluck, cluck, cluck.....

I have cracked corn ready....

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

I quoted you again to note that this really is the only reasonable course of action - wwest's most recent post in this thread, where he offered line-item nonsense, and even falsehoods, to a post of mine, really emphasizes how useless interacting with this guy really is.

And to Eric, yep, I must be one slow learning MF!!!

Yeah, it's always great when you tell him something and he says "I don't believe you!" (Or something similar).

LOL, like the world revolves around feeding Wild West some of his own medicine.

LMAO.

[Pato911]

Thanks everyone for their help. I got it charged and blowing cool air but the front condenser blower stopped working. Troubleshooting results:

1) The blower will run with 12vdc directly connected.
2) The fuse and relay have main power and I even tried swapping the fog light relay in.

System will not turn on the blower and the wiring diagram from Bentley has me a little confused. What are the DME Control Module, AC Temp Switch and Electro-magnetic coupling? How do I test them?


Thanks,

P

[DaveMcKenz]

Hi,
Please try jumpering 30 to 87 on the condenser relay. That confirms wiring OK.
Then jumper 85 to 86 that confirms relay OK. BTW sometimes the male pins on the relay lose contact with the socket. You can spread the pins open a little with a razor blade.
Let's see what that shows.
Good luck,
Dave

[Pato911]

Weird. Jumpering the relay socket #30-#87 with the AC running did not cause the blower to run and #30/ #85 measured 13/ 11.3V, respectively. Seems I may have a break in the connection between the relay and the blower.

Thanks Dave.

[DaveMcKenz]

Make sure you have 12 volts at #30 of the relay socket. If not the problem is further up the line.
Dave

[Pato911]

Hah. It turns out that the body shop plugged the wrong connector together at the blower. Once I found the other one after tracing from the relay, I plugged it in, tested and everything is working. Of course, I am still only getting vents about 25F below ambient. I will survive for our last couple of hot months. Thanks everyone.

:P

[DaveMcKenz]

I am glad you found that wiring problem. Does your 25 degree difference reflect how cold it gets with the doors and windows closed and the system recirculating and cooling for a while?
Dave

[Pato911]

Sadly, yes. Over about 15min of driving it went from 83F to 58F. I probably need to check the pressures again now that I have the additional "condensing capacity".

P

[DaveMcKenz]

Sorry, P. Please post your P's and T's and maybe we can spot something.
Dave