Need help with MSD 6AL install (replacing Permatune)
 

I decided to install an MSD 6AL 6425 to replace my Permatune on my '83 SC. I am pretty mechanically competent but I have zero experience with the electric side of car modifications, so this is my first time.

It seems to me that whomever installed the Permatune in the past completely butchered the wiring - or like I said I am unable to decipher the wiring due to lack of experience. I need help identifying the following:

There wires are coming from the topside of the engine wall
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps8o6cwifq.jpg

There are coming from under the fuel filter
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psja2nil5j.jpg

This is what the current situation looks like :rolleyes:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps8per1vgz.jpg

I'm currently mounding the MSD to the aluminium bracket but I'd like to get the wiring sorted first.. Any help on identifying the basics and cleaning up this mess would be appreciated :)

All the wires that connect to the MSD are in the connector you are holding in your hand, not sure what the cable coming from behind the fuel filter is, you're going to need to look at a schematic. Your msd comes with various wiring diagrams depending on install. I installed their Streetfire in my 83 and aside from having to flip flop the dizzy trigger and shield it was as drawn by MSD. Warren

The brown wires are grounds of course. They should be connected to the ground point to the left of the fuel filter. The red/black and red/white wires go to the defroster on the rear window.


That's the test port for checking dwell.

Hmmm... well that's a rat's nest. I went with the MSD Streetfire. I posted the wiring on the MSD side and the engine wiring harness side. I don't think it's different between the two. Let me find the thread and I'll post it in a few minutes.

Here is my layout:

Description - MSD Wire - Harness Wire

Coil positive - orange - white
12v switched - red - red
Neg mag pickup - green - green
Coil negative - black - brown
Tach - grey - black/violet
Pos mag pickup - violet - shield side of green wire

I suggest you read through this thread. It will help a lot.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/810696-msd-streetfire-install.html

Couple of things:

- What coil are you using?

- What plug wires do you have? You need to switch to Magnacor or Clewett if you have the original Berus still on the car. MSD specifically recommends against using solid core wires.

- Plug gaps. MSD recommends starting with .005" over the factory spec of .028" and increasing in .005 increments until fouling occurs and then backing off to the previous good value.

Dennis (timmy2) posted the part numbers to make a plug & play harness for the MSD. I'll look for that too.

On a quick look I couldn't find the post from Dennis I'm thinking about so here is the part number I ordered from Mouser to make the connector.

You need a minimum of 6. Order extras just to be safe.
42460-1 TE Connectivity / AMP | Mouser

You need 1 of these.
180906 TE Connectivity / AMP | Mouser

Dennis is the man when it comes to the wiring harness stuff. He can certainly help sort out the mess and even build you a new harness if necessary.

Also I forgot to mention this before but you probably want to run a new heavy gauge wire from the starter to the MSD.

Definitely will want the heavy gauge wire Tirwin mentions with constant 12vdc and an in line fuse. I normally install a 12 AWG red when building harnesses for MSD conversion.

Happy to help you with instructions, parts or even a replacement engine harness.


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Alright - I'm using the MSD Blaster High Vibration coil, Magnecor wires, and running stock gaps on my plugs which I think is 0.045. Do I need a special tool the adjust the gap on the plugs?

To take this step by step, should I strip down the Permatune connector and see whats up? Could it be that I can remove the PT connector and reconnect the wires to the MSD harness?

Hi Dennis

I'd appreciate any help - either by sorting out this mess I have or by building a new harness. My attitude towards this car is I want to do everything right from the beginning, so perhaps building a new harness would be the way forward.

Click on my username and send me a PM or email and we can discuss the many solutions available to get your MSD installed. :)


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Done.. saw the thread in the classifieds, top notch stuff..


Ok, I visited the PT website and saw the connector pin setup Perma Tune High Performance Ignition Systems

Pics
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psynesvrvz.jpg

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...pssxrkks2z.jpg

Can anyone help map the existing connector setup to the MSD connector?

Need help with MSD 6AL install (replacing Permatune)
 

Already done in a few threads, advanced search for Streetfire in the thread titles and go to the last page for the correct distributor wire orientation.

( I didn't receive any PM or email)


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I think I've figured it out. The only question is, the heavy red wire should connect to the fuse panel, however I have 2 wires already connected, both heavy red. Would one of these be for the now gone PT box?
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...pskrnkoedz.jpg

This is what it looks like now, without the wiring
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psrq9y2msj.jpg

i just installed mine las month if you follow the instructions that came with the MSD is pretty straightforward, are you keeping the points?
Make sure you use a good ground and a good 12v source, i used the starter cable as my constant 12v and one of the fuses you show as the switched one im almost sure the heavy red wires you mention are stock.
youre gonna love the msd and the built in rev limiter is a nice feat

best luck with the install

Do not want to hijack this thread but wanted to know what would the symptom be using Beru plug wires with a MSD 6A besides radio interference (noise)?

Also I have a Permatune CD that has been in operation for several years now and want to swap my original Bosch coil with a MSD Blaster coil, are they compatible? I'm trying to eliminate a hesitation I have at lower rpm's but runs fantastic at 4000 rpm's and up
Thanks
Lash

That 6 pin plug you show for the Permatune has almost everything you need. The green wire goes to green on the MSD, The shield wire with the black cover on it goes to the purple wire, The brown wire is ground. The red wire is probably power (check with a volt meter). The other 2 wires go to the coil. The only thing missing is a second power wire. On the MSD the fat red wire is unswitched power and the thin red wire is switched power. On my car I hooked up the unswitched power wire to one of those 3 fuses (check with voltmeter to find the one that is hot all the time). I hooked up the switched power to one of the 3 fuses that was hot when the key is turned on.

You can either hook up through the Permatune plug or run your own wires to the places they need to go.

-Andy

Done.. seems like everything is OK - thanks to Dennis for his input on this..

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps6sbyn1rd.jpg

I've been having starter issues for a while so the car won't start again, but doubt this has to do with the MSD. Car turns but won't start. I have a new high torque starter on the way.

Check the connections and routing of the new magnecor wires you have installed. I had the coil to distributor wire wanting to come out as it was a very tight fit.
Very easy to swap 2 wires as well.

Have you tested for a good strong spark on the plugs?

If you have good spark to each plug and it is firing the right plug at the right time, then fuel delivery may be your next challenge.


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Had the wires flipped (d'oh).. used the following and it worked:

1. Heavy red for constant power goes to one of the top 2 fuses on the rear 3 fuse panel that has an open terminal, fuse appropriately (top one?)
2. Heavy black ground it to a screw holding the fuse panel in place or other suitable good ground
3. Red connects to red wire in 6 pin connector (Center bottom)
4. Orange connects to white wire in 6 pin connector (Right bottom)
5. Black connects to the 2 brown wires in 6 pin connector (Right top)
6. Grey connects to purple/black wire in 6 pin connector (Center top)
7. Violet Connects to the green wire in 6 pin connector (Left bottom)
8. Green connects to the shield wire that may have black heat shrink in 6 pin connector (Left top)

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psnxjyhuao.jpg

What the best way to double check that everything is ok?

Seems the violet and green are the 2 wires that occasionally need to be swapped when it won't run well. The Streetfire seems to like them the other way.

Can't emphasize this enough. This was thoroughly debated in the thread I linked to. It ended up with me calling MSD support to prove it. That is also why I provided the wiring diagram. It would be odd (and confusing) to have two different products from the same company triggering on two different slopes but I suppose it is possible.

Well, the car won't start again.. the starter seems to get heavier.. Tried flipping the green and violet but no difference..

Your problem could be intermittent 12 VDC on the heavy red wire hooked to the fuse box.


I would NOT connect the the 12vdc on all the time heavy red wire to the fuse panel.

I learned this the hard way with my Daytona Sensors install. the new CDI draws more current than the Permatune or the Bosch. I found that the 14 pin connector was dirty and the 12 vdc coming from the starter was not on all the time.

I went back to the bundle that goes into the 14 pin and opened it and tapped into the larges red wire there which hooks straight to the starter. I put in a 20 amp fuse and that solved my problem for good. Now I knew I had good solid 12 VDC from the starter. By the way, I cleaned the 14 pin connector and it worked, but I never did trust it again to provide enough power to a good modern CDI. I know the Daytona-Sensors draws 5- 8 amps at full RPM

This is what it looks like.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1404322202.jpg


If you want to troubleshoot, run a heavy wire to the battery and see if it starts OK. this is how I trouble shot mine.

I am not sure how many people tapped into the heavy red from the 14-pin connector versus passing a wire directly from the starter.. What would be the most practical solution?

When I installed the MSD on my car (after removing a Permatune unit) I ran the red wire directly to the starter. I've never had an issue since 2008.

Using the constant hot from the 14 pin connector was meant as a temporary solution to just get the car to start and run (as per email about testing the MSD) until doing a permanent install with a proper fused constant hot run from the starter. It may just be the really old fuse holder causing problems as it heats up. A direct run with an in line fuse from the other side of the fuse may help. The best is to run it from the starter.

Alright - I'll work on the car tomorrow to do a proper fused wire from the starter. Any tips would be appreciated.

For what you are doing, (just to have it run reliably enough to tune up the other components) run a red #12 AWG stranded automotive wire with GXL or TXL 105C rated insulation.
Install a large crimped ring connector at the starter end, and at the other end install a 15 amp inline fuse holder and fuse, and then connect the fat red wire from the MSD to it.

You can secure the new wire in the engine bay along the side and the rear of the compartment until just to the right of center, and then run it over to the engine and then down through the weird looking rectangular grommet mounted to the engine tin where the engine harness goes through to get it to the starter area.

Disconnect the battery first!

Thanks Dennis

Got the goods.. will install soon

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psjya3wm5r.jpg

Looks like "soon" will become "later". I went under the car and found the weird looking grommet, however I could not locate it from inside the engine bay. I have no idea how to pass the wire through it, so I'll do some research on here and see what I find.

Received the history documents on my car today and discovered that the starting issue has been there for a long time. Hoping this plus the new fuel pump and high torque starter solve the problem.

If you are just going to wire it up temporarily to get the car running, you could just pass the wire through the rear rubber gasket at the engine tin in the same area. (Just to the right of center)
Slide a 12 inch long rubber hose over the wire where it will rub against the engine tin for safety.
Just don't leave it that way indefinitely.

I'm looking for a permanent solution now so I'd rather get it done right the first time :)

The adventure continues! After passing the wire through to the engine (thanks Dennis!), I tried removing the starter nut and it came clean off! It seems my starter has rusted through.. thankfully I've already placed an order for a new starter. Everything will be on pause I tell I receive my package from our host :)

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psh2p0ob42.jpg

Well, you have definitely found the starter issue!!!

Well, it took this long for me to get my new starter and other trinkets to get the job done.

Here is my old starter showing the damage
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...pspflordwj.jpg

Original starter vs new high torque starter
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psqsuctpd4.jpg
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psnxfpqlao.jpg

After all said and done (plus 4 hours)
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psy0ndvfk8.jpg

I had also installed a new accumulator and filter, so I turned the key on to start the fuel pump and not the engine, and noticed a little burst of fuel which then stopped. Noticed that this hose would spray fuel if I pushed it. Anyone know the best way to fix it? When the car running it doesn't leak.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...psjkh04x7e.jpg

I felt like a champ when the car started quickly, but that lasted all of 2 mins until I dropped the dipstick into the oil tank.. d'oh