sf bay '88 install renn-aire or griffiths?

[basher]

Has anyone in SF bay area had either griffiths or rennaire upgrades installed by a local A/C shop? (barrier hose, 134A, new compressor, condensors etc?). if so would appreciate comments on success, recommendations. I have 88 cabriolet. if you have vent temps and other related results would be great. considering making the plunge on this upgrade.

[sacoffee]

I'll jump in before you get bashed ... the site has a ton of info on AC, opinions, difference of opinions, and emotional discourse on behalf of and contrary to the two companies you mentioned. I doubt you will get much value out of your post. I suggest you do your own research.

But FWIW, as a point of comparison I am getting 50-55 vent temps at idle and under high RPM in 90 deg 60% humidity in Houston with stock rear condenser, stock hoses, Denso compressor, new front condenser, new drier, new TRx, new evaporator, upgraded blower motor, new fan control, 2-10" fans on rear condenser. Reference my company car 14' Taurus in same conditions in getting 50 deg vent temps.

[sacoffee]

Sorry, should have also said when you do your research send PM's to folks ... I got a lot of info on the real stories privately because folks don't want to start flames wars in the open

[texas993]

I just installed (myself) a retro-air kit in my '85 cab. Simply amazing. I got a 30* vent temp at 88* humid. New blower fan is good too. It took a lot of time to install, but was worth the $2k expense.

[schoward]

I converted to R134a with a new drier and a new compressor from ICE (Intercontinental Engineering (I think)). I have the kuehl center vent. All else stock. I get 33-35 degrees on fan speed 1 at the dash vent on 80 degree plus days. The shop that did it removed and flushed the condensers and thoroughly flushed the sludge out of the hoses which I think was key. Nine years later the system still does ok. Not quite like a modern car with the airflow but ok for the times in summer where I need it.

I am pleased with the results, but I have seen results vary with work others have had done and sometimes disproportionately to the $ folks dump in. Seems you can get lucky and sometimes not so much. In my opinion it's a little gamble and how much appetite you have for what can be a mini money pit.

[sacoffee]

I should say my results are at full blast fan speeds, the vent temps will drop at lower fan speeds

[GH85Carrera]

For SF area I would think the back stock system with new hoses to stop the leaks will be fine. If your stock system is at 100% you should be fine.

You may will need a new dryer and I would for sure pull the evaporator if it has never been removed in 26 years. My evaporator was gross needed replacement, your may well just need a cleanup.

I ended up with the Griffith's system and two additional condensers but I live in an area where triple digit temperatures are normal for summer.

[fintstone]

I have used components from both Griffiths and Rennaire. Both have high quality stuff that is a good value IMHO...it just depends on the configuration you want. You can even mix and match components if you want. If done properly, you should be able to get vent temps well below 40F.

[Josh D]

Originally Posted by texas993

I just installed (myself) a retro-air kit in my '85 cab. Simply amazing. I got a 30* vent temp at 88* humid. New blower fan is good too. It took a lot of time to install, but was worth the $2k expense.

Same here, but I installed mine 2.5 years ago and it's still working great, even in AZ heat. Still not sure why everyone so quick to jump on the Griffiths or RennAir bandwagon. RetroAire should at least be considered as well.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by schoward

I converted to R134a with a new drier and a new compressor from ICE (Intercontinental Engineering (I think)). I have the kuehl center vent. All else stock. I get 33-35 degrees on fan speed 1 at the dash vent on 80 degree plus days. The shop that did it removed and flushed the condensers and thoroughly flushed the sludge out of the hoses which I think was key. Nine years later the system still does ok. Not quite like a modern car with the airflow but ok for the times in summer where I need it.

I am pleased with the results, but I have seen results vary with work others have had done and sometimes disproportionately to the $ folks dump in. Seems you can get lucky and sometimes not so much. In my opinion it's a little gamble and how much appetite you have for what can be a mini money pit.

You make no mention of non-barrier hose leakage with the higher R-134a refrigerant pressures, which leads me to suspect your chosen shop knew enough to install a refrigerant pressure limit switch. The EPA "requires" the switch be added to R-12 legacy systems when converting to R-134a. Either way you might wish to upgrade to a RED DOT trinary pressure switch. Lower high side pressure limit, 325 PSI vs ~400 PSI, plus an extra pressure sensing switch that is typically used to control a condenser cooling fan to keep, or help keep, the high side pressures from becoming so high that through-and-through permeation of the OEM non-barrier hoses results.

In my '88 that third switch element is wired between ground and pin 10(***) of the cabin heat control module. The design of that module is such that a ground suppled to pin 10 will result in activation of the cabin heater blower with consistently low roadspeeds. The effect will be more than doubling of the cooling air flowing through the rear deck lid condenser.

*** In parallel with the engine oil temperature senser. The factory design use of this circuit is to provide addition engine exhaust manifold cooling when/if the oil temperature begins to due to the lack of sufficient engine cooling airflow in say, stop and go rush hour traffic.

Your '81 doesn't have the module so you might want to run the cabin heat blower anytime the trinary switch's extra element dictates. The alternative is to wire the switch between a switched 12 volt source and the positive input to the cabin heat blower.

Even with all that there remains a potential for excessive high side pressure post engine shut down resulting in non-barrier hose leakage.

You can lower that potential, possibility, via using the extra pressure switch to provide "after-run" cooling of the rear lid condenser. Either use a 10-15
minute TDR to extend the 12 volt source availiability, or simply wire the extra switch to an unswitched 12 volt source and monitor the battery condition for long enough to verify that there is not enough after-run time period required to compromise the battery's subsequent engine starting ability,

[wwest]

Originally Posted by sacoffee

I'll jump in before you get bashed ... the site has a ton of info on AC, opinions, difference of opinions, and emotional discourse on behalf of and contrary to the two companies you mentioned.

I doubt you will get much value out of your post. I suggest you do your own research.

But FWIW, as a point of comparison I am getting 50-55 vent temps at idle and under high RPM in 90 deg 60% humidity in Houston with stock rear condenser, stock hoses, Denso compressor, new front condenser, new drier, new TRx, new evaporator, upgraded blower motor, new fan control, 2-10" fans on rear condenser. Reference my company car 14' Taurus in same conditions in getting 50 deg vent temps.

Why would you assume OP doesn't have the intelligence to sort through, say, marketing HYPE (snake OIL) vs fully encompassing, ALL, practical experience and perfectly logical, but unproven, theories?

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Josh D

Same here, but I installed mine 2.5 years ago and it's still working great, even in AZ heat. Still not sure why everyone so quick to jump on the Griffiths or RennAir bandwagon. RetroAire should at least be considered as well.

I'm not sure why OP would jump on anyone's bandwagon, Griffiths, Retro-air, Rennaire, etc.

Especially given that in many (most?) cases a $200-300 expenditure will result in more than adequate A/C.

$200-300 for window tint, windshield heat rejection film, is a given, regardless.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I have used components from both Griffiths and Rennaire. Both have high quality stuff that is a good value IMHO...it just depends on the configuration you want. You can even mix and match components if you want. If done properly, you should be able to get vent temps well below 40F.

"..get vent temps below 40F...."

Totally, TOTALLY, meaningless parameter.

What is important is the DELTA, inflow vs outflow temperature.

Worse case, elevated interior temps, >100F, with maximum and minimum blower setting.

No one really cares, I hope, about outflow temperature with the cabin interior already cooled down such that the interior AIR temperature is within the human comfort zone, ~75F. At which point most of us would be using some method of A/C throttling.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by wwest

"..get vent temps below 40F...."

Totally, TOTALLY, meaningless parameter.

What is important is the DELTA, inflow vs outflow temperature.

Worse case, elevated interior temps, >100F, with maximum and minimum blower setting.

No one really cares, I hope, about outflow temperature with the cabin interior already cooled down such that the interior AIR temperature is within the human comfort zone, ~75F. At which point most of us would be using some method of A/C throttling.

Sheesh, what a douche. After 5 min, I would expect 35F at 100F ambient at the #2 fan setting in direct sun without window tint at any speed from from stting still to 100 Mph.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Sheesh, what a douche. After 5 min, I would expect 35F at 100F ambient at the #2 fan setting in direct sun without window tint at any speed from from stting still to 100 Mph.

100F Ambient OAT...

Our Porsche's A/C have no "fresh air" inlet mode, therefore quoting OAT ambient is meaningless.

" I expect.."

Big expectations!

"no one cares..." Except one!

[fintstone]

Pretty reasonable to me. I assume that the same system that would do that on my car...would do so on any other 1989 or earlier Porsche...since they are so similar.

[fintstone]

Of course OAT is important...because it generally affects the temp inside the car if you are outside...which is the source for the A/C air.

[wildthing]

I did the Griffith's kit with compressor for an 88, some time last November. Work done by RMG. I am in the San Jose to Sunnyvale area most of the time.

I suppose you could get away with just the one without compressor, but I wanted it over and done with and not leave out any variables. Plus I had an extra $400 burning a hole in my pocket. J/K.

Today it is 90 degrees out, and my thermostat is still not full blast. It is probably below halfway and is still blowing cold. They say tomorrow is worse, up to 100, maybe I'll take it out and let you know.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Josh D

Same here, but I installed mine 2.5 years ago and it's still working great, even in AZ heat. Still not sure why everyone so quick to jump on the Griffiths or RennAir bandwagon. RetroAire should at least be considered as well.

When I installed my system, there was nothing on Retro Aire's site about Porsche installs/components and as far as I know, they did not offer the Porsche-specific components they do now. I would be interested in a thread regarding their components and discussion about cost/effectiveness.

[jittsl]

I live in San Antonio where it gets hot (90-100 degrees) most days of 9 months of the year. I installed Retroaire's simple one condenser kits on both my 70 911 and my 69 912 and am happy with both. Can't tell you what temps I have at my vents but can tell you that (except when stuck in stopped traffic) both cars are cool enough to make it tolerable. When stuck in traffic I need to rev the engine of the 911 to get air flowing through the condenser. In the 912 I had room to install a cheap fan that pulls air through half the condenser and these seems to almost overcome the issue but a little reving still required. Biggest problem in the 912 is that with the a/c running it's not likely to win a drag race with a bicycle.

So happy with Retroaire that I'm about to order a bunch of new components for the my current 84 with a 3.8 liter project. This project will use their evaporator and blower mounted in a Behr box in the smuggler's box, hoses and dryer along with a 993 condenser in the left front fender and a 993 compressor.