Shady shop practices. Shame on them.
 

Short version:

I DIY most of the stuff on my car, but am considering an upgrade that's beyond my abilities.

I requested a guesstimate on a diff install into a bare 915. Shop quoted me $500 labor (very fair, imho) and $700 for parts. Parts being carrier bearings, ring gear bolts, locking tabs, and shims (if necessary.)

I responded with actual cost of listed parts (~$100, give or take) with links to said parts and asked if there was more to it that I missed, or a high estimate just in case there is unexpected damage found in the process. (Which was entirely possible.)

Shop suddenly too busy to work with me. Oops, don't think they liked me catching them trying to rip me off.

So learn your stuff, be an informed consumer, and if you find a good shop you trust, let them know by referring others to them.

If you care to read my long version, it's here.

Maybe he was going to use genuine Porsche parts, not generic parts. Just the two bearings and 12 bolts would run you north of $400, with tax. If you think all bearings and all bolts are the same, you have a rude awakening headed your way somehere down the road. Even bearings from companies that used to have a good name are made in places now that you don't want them to be made. Spend a half hour bending the ear of your local bearing supplier and see what you can learn. I won't buy a bearing without seeing it in person, to see what plant it came from. And, there are more ****ty bolts out there than good ones. A differential is not the place I'd choose to use a bolt from the hardware store.

Maybe the estimate was just off of the top of his head. Maybe he's a little light on labor (I note that that didn't concern you) and a little heavy on parts. Hard to say. Maybe he's not ducking the work because you"caught him" but because he thinks you might turn out to be a pain in his ass.

I don't know, since I wasn't there. And I'm not trying to make you out to be the bad guy, since I don't know you. I'm just saying that there may be another side to the story and maybe you shouldn't judge him the way you did.

Bob was going to give you the 'ole...

He's a dumb, deep-pocketed, sits behind a desk all day, Porsche owner discount ;)

...just wait until you price out engine rebuilds. That's a real riot. DIY for under $5g or pay a shop $12g+. Lolz@Porsche Tax.

Yes, I'm totally aware that I could be off base. On top of that, I've never worked in a shop and realize quoting something over e-mail accurately is about impossible. I just really didn't like the feeling I got out of the exchange.

I just caution people to do some research and ask questions. If Bob sent me back that he insists on Porsche branded bearings only, for example, and that they cost more I'd accept that. Or if he said he typically finds issues and the estimate was high to cover these possible issues I'd accept that too. I would never have written the story.

I've seen some overcharging on parts from certain places, sometimes it's intentional, sometimes they're just paying a convenience fee for being able to source them quickly.

Generally a good place will be forthcoming with the brand and how much they can get the parts for when giving you a quote. Since there are often multiple parts options when performing repairs, transparency in that area is essential.

A reputable shop would insist on using factory parts that will likely come with a warranty, known to fit, and of high quality. This is more expensive than off market parts, but the shop won't have to "redo" the job because of a bad bolt. This results in expensive part prices, but protects their reputation. They certainly do not have the time to scout on line for 2 hours looking for the best deal.

Your "calling them out" on part prices just confirms that you are the type of customer that wants everything for cheap, that their labor is zero, and if possible, you would just bring your own parts.

Funny how many people insist the shops to accept owner-supplied parts, and yet we would never bring our own grocery to a restaurant.

Shops pay the overhead with parts markup. That's how it's done pretty much throughout the trade. They have rent/mortgage, utilities, advertising, licenses and permits, tools and equipment. Labor should cover the employees and the shop profit. If they were to price parts at what you can find them for on the web, they'd go under in short order. The places you find them super cheap have no, or very little, physical presence other than a desk and a phone line, and some kind of computer access to the web. When I was in business, I would only rarely use customer supplied parts, and then there's no warranty on either parts or labor. I would jack up the labor to cover the lost parts profit. I had a sign clearly pointing this out. I turned away a lot of work because the customer was too cheap to allow me to make enough on the job to make it worth my while to take it on. IMO, it's better to sit around and starve than to bust my tail and still starve.

The Cap'n

Box it up and send it to a reputable shop such as John Walker's or closer to where you live. Spend your money where it is appreciated. Or DIY the transmission job too? Gotta' be many threads on that.

Fair enough. I know people have to survive. But is 500% markup industry standard?

Regardless, I'm very thankful I'm competent enough to do most of my own work.

I got a very reasonable estimate from an out of state shop, and a fair estimate from the local shop that I've used before, trust, and honestly planned on going with the whole time.

FWIW, the shop I plan on using came highly recommended by this forum. So Pelican people tend to know what's up. Thank you.

i totally agree with this . perhaps OP would have prefered his bill to break out as:

parts=
labour=
lights=
heat=
taxes=
rent=
insurance=
benefits=

I replaced the carrier bearings in mine for less then 200.00 My labor is free to me.
That said to put in a Lsd is more labor (set up )
I would allocate at least 8 hours to it for it....but i am s l o w.

Blame it on the internet where everyone knows everything. I'm not bashing just saying.

I've been a general contractor for 30 years having done every project imaginable. I've noticed in the last 3-5 years everyone I work for seems to know my job better than I do; how to do it and what to do it with.

My determination is all the home improvement TV shows and the great and accurate free info available on line. Everyone is an expert even here.

Many automotive business consultants recommend doubling net parts cost, at a MINIMUM, preferring triple when you can. Obviously, dealer parts purchased at 20% below list aren't really going to fit that formula, so other parts have to cover the margin.

The Cap'n

I know a great shop in San Antonio TX. Jones autowerks. 210-657-1111. 11010 Iota Drive.
Bob Jones has been working on porches for at least 40 years or so.
I also DIY most of my own stuff including engine rebuild, but they rebuilt my 915 transmission including taking it out and putting it back in for about $2600.00. Works like a new box now.


Paul

ps... don't ever buy a Vertex automotive rebuilt transmission. Got one from there and it was crap.

Porsche parts might be different. ( i know i would not stock a bunch of stuff ! )
I used to own a couple generic auto shops.
The double AA mover stuff was about 30% mark up that we stocked. Over night and next day was more Sometimes a LOT more .
That means the car took up space somewhere, sometimes it could not be moved off the rack or pit.
Or it was "stored" a few days.
This alone takes a while to reset.
Every shop is allowed it's own SOP.
Overhead is a lot in a real professional shop.
Shade tree not so much.
There are honest shops that make a honest living.
The few that are ignorant, like anything ruins the whole flavor for everyone.
New car stealers are the worse.
People are treated like a bad whore after the guarantee runs out.
Then they scratch their heads why customers never return.

I know of a shop where the labor rate is $25/hour more than the regular rate for installing owner supplied parts...

Try buying some Harley parts...they take the suggested retail price of the part and double it...even for over the counter parts you are going to install yourself.
Bob

another reason not to own a Harley!!!

I am going to guess..If you are not the talented wrenchy type, That it is EZ to get flustered over the "not knowing factor"
It makes you guess if the " hover gasket" really did need replacing.
How much it should cost, how long it should take .
Also, it comes dwn to the shop "sorting" customers.
I sincerely mean this - I learned early on how to say" NO" ! to some people.
It saved me money !
Some people will never be pleased.
There are key statements that a "bad" customer will make.
The shop owner learns to "Not have time"
I am Not saying you are this way, just offering the possibilities of a shops point of view .

The tools and gauges to properly set back lash on a ring and pinion in a 915 Trans cost several thousand dollars. I know because we bought a set. Properly building a 915 is a big job, maybe three days. I think the proper price for a 915 rebuild is $3500 to $5000, depending on the shop you chose. I would not ever have a local transmission shop do the work. There are several in Chicago, Dallas and Los Angeles that I would ship to. That is why my son (mechanical engineer and great auto mechanic) decided to buy the tools and do it ourselves. That is after tearing up two different pinion gears.

Hahaha so true. I am in the medical field and I get this all the time.

I do my best to be an informed customer, but given what I see in my own line of work, I try to see things from the shops side too... i.e. trusting their judgement, and not trying to call all the shots because I now I do not have as much experience. Thing is, I do my job and get paid the same no matter what I do, so I would like to think I do what I think is right, no more, no less. Shops have mouths to feed, and so it can be in their best interest to "fluff up" the work.

But then many mechanics are very honest.

My style it to be as informed as possible, communicate as effectively as possible, realize I am not the expert, find a mechanic that is ok with me sourcing parts (often they don't mind as it saves them time), be polite, don't be afraid to discus/challenge their assessment of things, and don't get walked over, don't disrespect others.

I also tend to pick mechanics that love cars. My main mechanic rally's VW's and used to road race (he works on my BMW's), and the other is a Porsche nut/collector/road racer. I know and trust both and don't blink twice about their bills because I trust them. We often chat cars, they give me free advice. They get my cars in fast for work, I give them good business, and it is a good relationship.

I took my Mazda to the dealer for some major work. They were ok with me sourcing big ticket items (fuel injectors, I saved over 200$). They are professional, they are civil. I don't trust them. Why? Well that is my problem, and maybe it will change, but I don't know them, I don't get to talk to the mechanic (just the head of service), and thus I can't build a relationship to build trust. That is part my, and part their problem.

Back to the OP, find a mechanic your trust, who loves the cars you love, and who will be ok with your sourcing your own parts. Then be really nice to him/her. Mine invited me to guest drive his rally car in a rally-cross event. Not sure he will again as I was faster than he was. ;-)

Completely understand that any shop has to make money. That's just how business works. There are things I do because I can or because it is a hobby and I want to learn. There are things I lack the skill or tools or time to do. In those cases I pay someone.

In fairness to the OP, it seems he just saw what appeared to be a descrepancy and asked. Some of you guys that have run shops should understand that customers don't always know (or care) how your business works. Maybe the shop owner didn't want to say "we make money on parts" outright.

I got a quote the other day from a contractor that I thought at first was exorbantly high. After we went through it in detail I was satisfied it was not unreasonable. I think the contractor handled it well. I wasn't a jerk and neither was he. As a result we came to an understanding of how to change some things so we could both be happy and move forward. Had he not been willing to explain it, I probably would've found someone else to do the job. As a consumer I have a right to understand what I'm getting for the agreed price. But a customer who sees prices being marked up 100-200% has every reason in the world to be skeptical. It's a perception thing.

The point is It takes two parties being civil to reach a mutually satisfactory outcome sometimes. And sometimes the best thing you can tell a customer is "no".

Old wise man used to say "... you can shear your sheep many time, but you can skin them only once". Hell yeah a shop needs to cover their costs. But there is a limit. Even the lowly customer needs to feel that he got a good shake.

Find a shop that you have "chemistry" with. Both sides need to win on a transaction. Heck, I fired my last guy because he wouldn't let me call him by his name??? What a crackpot! There are other shops out there... find one you can work with. If you get the cold treatment more than a few times maybe you will need to re-think the approach.

Michael

I've never run an automotive business, but in my other businesses, I purchased materials for 60-70 percent off list. That permitted me to add a healthy markup 30-35 percent and still offer a deal to the customer. So are repair shops paying retail for parts?

Repair shops typically buy their parts at 25-30% off retail, for the good stuff, like genuine Porsche parts. The not-so-good-stuff might be a little cheaper. I don't know of any of them that add mark-ups anywhere near as high as what has been suggested on this thread. I've never paid over suggested retail for anything I bought through a shop.

If I were a shop, I wouldn't be putting anything but the best parts into a gearbox, because I wouldn't want to have to go back into it for free, if something didn't hold up. The inside of a gearbox isn't a good place to be a cheap bastard.

JR

That's an interesting, and complicated, question. European specialty shops have the dealers who mostly give 20% off of list. Maybe more if you're a volume customer. They also have WDs (warehouse distributors) such as SSF, Worldpac, IMC, and a few others. They carry some high demand dealer sourced parts at the same 20% off of list, and a huge selection of aftermarket parts at substantially greater discounts. Some even have their own lines of remanufactured parts and house branded stuff. Worldpac is owned by Carquest, which has been gobbled up by someone else. The WDs used to carry pretty much quality merchandise made in the same European factories used by the car manufacturers. Now it's Chinese stuff made in the same places as a lot of the parts now sold by the dealerships. Remember, China is the fastest growing market in the business, and the big manufacturers now assemble cars there and source a lot of the parts locally. (BTW, Pelican and other similar businesses source much of their inventory from those same WDs and Dealers.)

The aftermarket merchandise sold by the WDs is often priced pretty low, so there's a lot of room for markup. Some stuff is maybe 70-80% off, but it's more common to see 50%. In order to make a decent impact on shop overhead, prices need to be close to suggested retail, on average. And, unlike shops that specialize in American cars, European or Asian specialty shops who buy from parts stores aren't able to make enough on parts to survive.

This seems somehow incomplete, but my brain is going into park right now, so this will have to do ........................

The Cap'n

I'll add one thing. When my local shop supplies an aftermarket part, they do so at a reduced price. Even though their cost is much lower on an aftermarket part than a genuine one, they don't keep the extra mark-up that they could get if they sold it a the MSRP of the genuine part. They are happy to make their usual profit and pass the rest of the savings on to the customer.

JR

Just the disparaging nature of the title to your thread is problematic. This shop simply gave you an estimate that you apparently disagree with. What is shady about that? You can vote with your dollar and find a shop that will do your job for an amount you believe to be reasonable.

What exactly is shady about being given an estimate you find high?

The use of the word shady would imply paying for something that is not received or delivering poor quality work. Neither is the case here because the process has ended with your rejection of their estimate.

RocAuto is one of the Walmarts of auto parts. They are great for the diyer but the bane of small shop owners everywhere. Because they don't have the same overhead and expertise in installation (mechanics to pay instead of minimum wage lackeys who can yank a part off the shelf and throw it in a box) they can afford to undercut MSRP even on identical parts.
And as others have mentioned it is a buyer beware environment because not all parts are created equal, so you need to know the source of your part.

In this instance, if one just reviews Pelican's differential bearing selection you will see he offers both the cheap SKF bearing and the more expensive Porsche version. Some shops will only sell genuine. Many will use that cheaper SKF equivalent.
I'm guessing this quote was using genuine. I also suspect that the shop owner didn't like being price shopped and then basically accused of gouging.
People have become accustomed to the idea of the customer is always right. They often forget the old sign we see in restaurants,"we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." I do fire customers. I refuse people's money. And I am a 100% wholesale business, so I'm actually firing shops.

Regards,

Matt Monson
Guard Transmission llc.

I know it can't be fun to have to explain pricing all day, but who out there doesn't need to spend time explaining their value proposition and pricing structure - trying to balance being fair and clear and respecting your trade and not giving everything away to everyone who asks for a price/estimate/proposal? I am a licensed professional and have to deal with the all the time. If someone is being unnecessarily rude and just fishing for pricing so they can beat me down, i will move on. If i sense they are inquiring in good faith, I respond in kind. I vigerously defend my fees, but am willing to explain them all day. Sort of a cost of doing business in my opinion. I dont give my money to anyone who wont do the same.

Oil leak.
 

Not P-Car related, but-

I took my wife's '03 Outback 48K miles to the local dealer with an oil leak issue.

The mechanic diagnosed the issue to a cylinder head gasket leak, big $$$$$$$.

As some of you may be aware, the Subaru 3.0 motor is of the Boxter design.

Brought the car home, had a look, replaced the oil cooler O-ring which is integated into the oil filter mounting.

$10.00-End of story...........