value questions - 1980 targa

[Dp2275]

Hi everyone,
This isnt a for sale thread. Im simply listing what the car is and I need some advice regarding which direction to move with my car.. I have a 1980 911sc targa (had it for 2 years now). I was doing a major service in prep for the Hershey swap meet last month and when I pulled the valve covers to adjust valves, found 4 broken headstuds.

SO that leads me to where im at.. My fiance' and myself have been attempting to buy the neighbors farm and i could use the cash from this Porsche even though i told myself id never sell (diehard Porsche enthusiast that's wanted a 911 since 2yrs old).

My question is: would i see better return on investment by selling with known broken headstuds or spending the money to do a top-end rebuild and get everything back together? I would do all work myself.

about the car:
-250k miles on chassis. No previous records from before i bought the car at 247k miles. All records kept since purchase.
-motor runs very strong. CIS works well and starts cold or hot with no issues.
-carerra chain tensioners
-bilstein suspension (sports front, HD rear)
-sway away hollow torsion bars (21mm front, 26mm rear)
-carerra sways
-RS carpet set in CORK
-RS door panels in CORK (properly done with weather barrier)
-front seats recovered in CORK german vinyl
-radio delete panel (Porsche oem)
-custom welded 6 point roll bar (has door bars that extend to front sill but can be cut out for easier access)
-recently rebuilt 915 shifter
-oil cooler scoop
-16x7 & 16x8 fuchs
-body is clean/straight with no damage but plenty of rock chips. Grand prix white. Touch of rust starting under rear window and some surface rust on front fenders from rock chips. No chassis rust that i can find at all (I have a lift).

**the following parts were just added when i found the broken studs so they are brand new and ran around $2k**
-QSC steel headers (rsr style 1/2" primaries) and bursche 2-into-1 street quiet exhaust
-swepco trans fluid
-backdated oil hoses
-random hoses/clamps replaced with OEM parts
-refreshed brake calipers (standard SC)
-bump steer kit
-rebuilt axles
-new brake lines (soft and hard)
-delrin front control arm bushings (custom -turned them on my lathe)
-new neatrix rubber trailing arm bushings


Thanks
Dustin in Dillsburg, PA

[Kemo]

id say the real money is in the low mileage original cars. so if I had to guess, I would think your car would sell just above 15K maybe even 18K. Of course you never know, a European buyer may swoop in and give you 20+. Either way, the market is still changing with these cars appreciating quite fast. if it were me, I would keep it and do a top end and install new headstuds, at the very least. I would also guess that its the original engine and hasn't been rebuilt. After all, who puts in Dilivar studs these days? All things considered, you might want to go thru the bottom end if your budget allows. This is when good documentation would come in real handy...

if you are very lucky, you might be able to get away with just replacing the studs and having the heads rebuilt. and this could technically be a sub 1000 dollar project.

[COLB]

You say 250k on the chassis -- is the motor original to the car?

Two years ago, what you are describing would be a parts car. Today, you are probably looking at a value ceiling of about $18-20k -- if you rebuild the engine.

You are probably around $13-15k as it sits -- and it may be a tough sell given the welded roll bar and uber high miles. This makes the engine repair a "break even" proposition, unless you DIY and limit yourself to only fixing what is wrong (headstuds.) Once you get it out and open, you will have to avoid the "while you are in there" syndrome -- and hope it doesn't need any other work.

This is probably false hope if the motor already has 250k on it.

The better question to ask youself: who is the potential buyer for this car? Given your mods, it is basically a half-built track car. Anyone going that route is not going to want to worry with a stock (and tired) engine anyway -- new headstuds or not.

I would suggest trying your luck selling it "as is" at a price you think is reasonable. This costs you nothing.

If you go the "rebuild" route, then do it to the spec that YOU want with the intent of keeping the car. Anything else is probably a financial loser.

Just one dudes opinion.

[Dp2275]

Thanks guys, really appreciate the feedback.

I ran the serial off the motor and compared it to some dating information when I first bought the car and it fell within the correct range for my model year so I believe the motor is original.

I have the mechanical aptitude to do the work myself but I'm well known in this area for "while you're in there" so I'm nervous that id fully rebuild the Motor and not recoup the investment.

[dicklague]

But its a targa!

[COLB]

Originally Posted by dicklague

But its a targa!

And?

[77Targa0912]

How experienced are you at pulling the motor and taking it apart to fix the 4 studs? Or at least the bottom 12? Could be a few days time if you Have the cam removal tools and know how to time the valves properly. Budget a gasket kit and studs... You could get the job done for less than $2,000 including some might as wells.

Don't listen to the guys that say you need a $15-20k rebuild.

[Trackrash]

IF it only needs head studs, yea, $1K in parts.

But at that mileage, you should at least budget for a valve job. Hopefully the cylinders are in spec. Does it have Mahle cylinders?

The other problem I see when you go to sell is the non stock exhaust. Many states require it to pass smog, and it won't unless it has the original exhaust system.

[dyount]

You might be able to replace the broken studs and dump it to a non savvy buyer in the 15ish range imho. But, I know i'd be more then concerned buying a 911 from someone who's done all their own work without having someone give it a good look over.
If you had it done by Fosters or George Johnson (local) at least their input would be on the sale??

[Dp2275]

Again, thanks for all the feedback. Addressing some of the questions and comments above..
- I don't have my own cam tools so I'd need to rent or buy them. As far as the work itself is concerned, I'm not the least bit worried. I've built many engines, including a few that set cam timing via measuring lift at TDC. I have the dial caliper as well as any other tools needed to check specs while I'm in there (bore gauges, micrometers, etc). I think my concern is more the cost AND time needed and whether I'd make it past "break-even". I do have my own business doing automotive work (In addition to my real job) so time is an important consideration. I'm glad to hear I can probably get it done for around $2k (assuming this doesn't include cylinders or any other major hard parts that may be bad).

-seems to be a common concern regarding the cylinders. Not sure If they're Mahle or KB. I've read that the 1980 MY could have both. I'll have to look for any stampings on the base since it's still up on the lift. The stock exhaust is gone, unfortunately. The heat exchanger tins were too damage to save and the cat was punched out so I sent the lot to the scrap yard.

-what I'm not interested in doing is just dumping the car. If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't be posting here as it would ultimately end up for sale on pelican. I would want a fair price based on current market value and from what I'm hearing, while a rebuild would get me a higher sale price, my net return wouldn't be much, if any, above what it would be as-is. I'd encourage anyone interested to come take a look before buying if it goes up for sale. Bring whoever you'd like

[Dpmulvan]

keep it, fix it, drive it and see if prices continue to go up.

[COLB]

You are the only one who can quantify the dollar value of your time.

I think the book rate for a top end is somewhere in the neighborhood of 45-50 hours -- and that presumes the rebuilder has the tools and equipment, and the experience to keep small tasks (e.g., exhaust studs) from turning into laborious ones -- and to do the work in about the same time a garage would. It sounds like you have this experience and equipment (minus the cam tools). I'm sure it would take me double that.

If you calculate $1500 for parts (if you are lucky), factor in at least 5 weeks of full weekends for labor -- to add about optimistically $5k in value to what would otherwise be a $13-15k car.

Based on your comments about not wanting to dump it, I get the sense that selling something that is broken doesn't sit well with you -- very understandable given the labor and sweat equity you have already built into the car. With sentiment factored in (and these cars are about emotional attachment!), it sounds like fixing the head studs is what you want to do. And there is the prospect of breaking even if the engine work is something you enjoy as a hobby -- and you can afford to spend the time away from your business.

But from a purely mercenary standpoint, it is probably a net loss.

The one thing to consider is -- who is the market buyer for a street/track or DE car (upgraded suspension, Rs interior, welded roll cage) with a stock engine with 250k on pistons, heads, and bottom end?

My guess is that guys interested in your car would want it as a roller with the rebuilt transmission, with the intention of dropping an already built-up high power motor (carbs, 3.2 pistons, hotter cams, etc.) into it. Or are interested in your motor as a core, and are going to tear it all the way down anyway -- in which case your work (and money) is wasted. Rebuilding the motor and raising the price is likely to reduce your pool of buyers, not increase it.

[tharbert]

I don't think you can realistically get away with only head studs and a valve job unless the goal is to sell the car. So, you have to have a clear idea what you want to do going in...and stick to it.

[Dp2275]

COLB,
You nailed my personality to a T. Seems like you know the porsche market well, too. Very impressive. I feel like we would be good friends if you were a neighbor

I don't want to sell the car broken, or even at all, but I'm a young guy with a pending marriage, kids in near future, and property acquisition so I realize where my priorities really are. I would love to do the motor work just for the experience but It wouldn't get done until the fall/winter based on current workload.

I think the great feedback here has opened my eyes and I'm going to move forward with a sale as-is with full disclosure. I've already had a few interested parties based on this thread so I think your advice has been spot on. You can mark my word that I'd be back in the community in the future if I do sell!

Thank you!

[COLB]

Good luck with the sale -- and land purchase, if that is the direction you go. Hope it works out.