E15 Ethanol approved for cars '91 and newer

[RSBob]

Older engines (read "ours") may have serious problems. "May", could read "likely", but since I am not an expert. Read on and chime in on what we can do if needed:


Excerpted from the New York Times January 21, 2011:

WASHINGTON — The Environmental Protection Agency said on Friday that cars and light trucks from the 2001 model year onward can safely use a blend of 15 percent ethanol mixed with gasoline, up from the 10 percent standard now in effect in much of the country. The decision expands the pool of vehicles that could use such a fuel to about 62 percent of the total on the roads.

But the practical impact of the announcement on the fuel blend, known as E15, was not clear. An announcement in October that newer cars, from the 2007 model year and later, could use the blend has so far had little impact on retailers or drivers. A new fuel requires multiple approvals from many agencies. And retailers are typically not set up to offer an additional grade of gasoline at their pumps: if they wanted to sell E15, they would have to stop selling something else.

The ethanol industry is facing a problem selling its product because overall gasoline sales are down even while ethanol production is up. In addition, while many cars have been manufactured that can run on an 85 percent ethanol blend, known as E85, very few gasoline retailers outside the Midwest actually sell the fuel. Auto makers had expressed concern that the E15 blend could harm cars’ seals, pumps and other fuel system components.

But on Friday, Lisa P. Jackson, the E.P.A. administrator, said the agency’s testing had found otherwise. “Recently completed testing and data analysis show that E15 does not harm emissions control equipment in newer cars and light trucks,” she said in a statement. “Wherever sound science and the law support steps to allow more home-grown fuels in America’s vehicles, this administration takes those steps.”

The ethanol industry cheered the announcement.

Growth Energy, a trade group that had petitioned the E.P.A. in 2009 to raise the standard blend to 15 percent ethanol from 10 percent, said that if accomplished, the change “could help create as many as 136,000 new jobs in the United States.”

Encouraging the use of corn-based ethanol is one of the few federal auto policies that has had a substantial impact on reducing oil imports.

The government is still studying the ability of older cars to withstand a 15 percent ethanol blend. The E.P.A. has not said when it expects to announce a ruling on older vehicles. Some gasoline-powered equipment, like marine outboard motors, chain saws and leaf blowers, is never expected to qualify, and E15 in those engines would create safety hazards, the equipment makers say.

Full text: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/22/business/energy-environment/22ethanol.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=ethanol&st=cse

I understand cars with carbs may have additional difficulties

[KNS]

They may offer it (15%) to drivers of newer cars - doesn't mean they'll buy it. I certainly won't.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by KNS

They may offer it (15%) to drivers of newer cars - doesn't mean they'll buy it. I certainly won't.

You will if they stop making no-ethanol gasoline.

[70PORSCHE9146]

I can tell you that any thing over 10% ethanol in regulal unleaded fuel will cause problems with pre 2007 cars that are not FLEX FUEL compliant. The early cars -2006 and earlier have no way to compensate for a leaner mixture and a fuel with a much lower caloric content that ethanol has. The oil companies love this stuff because they can dilute the fuel and make additional profit because they know you will be getting poorer gas mileage .I t may take awhile for people to wake up to whats going on . look at what happend with reformulated gas that had MTBE in it .Also i have noticed here in L.A. they no longer advertise on the pump that the fuel contains ethanol!.

[GothingNC]

Waste of our tax dollars


Why Is America Still Wasting A Ton Of Money On Ethanol Subsidies?

Why Is America Still Wasting A Ton Of Money On Ethanol Subsidies?

[pksystems]

The solution is obvious..... we're supposed to get rid of anything more then 5 years old, and get a new car from Government motors. That's where this is headed.

[twistoffat]

We are getting E10(ie 10% ethanol) at the pumps here in February. Most German motorists are not happy and lobby groups are against it. The General move worldwide seems to lack any proper information and seems to be pushed through by Governments regardless of existing doubts. Rumours here is that they want to force many to either buy new cars of force motorist to buy Superplus 98 which currently cost around 1,46€/ 2 USD a litre.
Even the greens are worried about what will happen to food prices when land used for food production gets switched to biofuel production.

[klaus]

Originally Posted by twistoffat

Even the greens are worried about what will happen to food prices when land used for food production gets switched to biofuel production.

This is a concern for sure, but it depends where the biofuel is coming from, if you are using land previously used for grain production that could cause a further rise in the price of food around the globe, but if you were using land that was previously deemed unsuitable for corn, wheat, etc production then biofuel could become more sustainable.

[Drisump]

But on Friday, Lisa P. Jackson, the E.P.A. administrator, said the agency’s testing had found otherwise. “Recently completed testing and data analysis show that E15 does not harm emissions control equipment in newer cars and light trucks,” she said in a statement. “Wherever sound science and the law support steps to allow more home-grown fuels in America’s vehicles, this administration takes those steps.”
Am I missing something? Auto makers are concerned about seals and pumps on vehicles using E15 and she replies as though only the integrity of the emissions equipment is of concern. I guess if all the vehicles that can't run on E15 are out of service, it's of no concern what the state of their emission equipment is. I have to say, all governments....everywhere, seem to be run exclusively by "policy makers" (ie. lawyers, economists, etc.).....I'm thinking a lot more engineers (to bring some practicality to the table) should be in the mix Cheers. BTW I'm not an engineer

[Wil Ferch]

Ethanol is the Devil's playgound..

Naive statement......don't buy 15% ethtanol when it comes out? What happens when you have *no choice* ?....just like the current risk to our pre-1990 cars that are negatively affected by today's 10% ethanol???? Right now....I have NO CHOICE but to buy 10% ethanol at any of my local ( and not so local) gas stations, for all fuel octanes. It's more than the rubber fuel lines being eaten away. Diaphragms, seals, gaskets.....the whole fuel system is at-risk of being eaten.

Solutuon?...at the moment there is NONE.

....the best we USA types can do is buy Marine Grade Stabil such that the moisture problem can be addressed.....but it does nothing for elastomer attack.

See my post here, too----> Ethanol Fuels

[drauz]

Drisump,
Note she is the EPA administrator (political bureaucrat) & the waiver review was focused upon emissions control equipt. (narrow regulatory turf). From their website:
"What vehicles may not use E15?
All MY2000 and older cars, light-duty trucks, and medium-duty passenger vehicles (SUVs)."

My take is the Ethanol-in-cars sector has (unwittingly) positioned themselves for a fall. But it's a great biz if you are a lobbiest telling them "the fix is in!".

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by Wil Ferch

Ethanol is the Devil's playgound..

Naive statement......don't buy 15% ethtanol when it comes out? What happens when you have *no choice* ?....just like the current risk to our pre-1990 cars that are negatively affected by today's 10% ethanol???? Right now....I have NO CHOICE but to buy 10% ethanol at any of my local ( and not so local) gas stations, for all fuel octanes. It's more than the rubber fuel lines being eaten away. Diaphragms, seals, gaskets.....the whole fuel system is at-risk of being eaten.

True words, at least for non-Flex fuel cars and trucks. Those vehicles have SS or plastic fuel tanks, SS fuel lines, and Viton seals in the fuel delivery system to better resist the effects of E15 to E85.

For everything else, E15 would be a very expensive problem given what I've seen with the long-term effects of E10.

Now is the time to send e-mails to your Congressmen and Senators (as well as the EPA) about your views on E15.

[DRACO A5OG]

What would be the cost to retro fit to take the abuse of the E10-E15 fuels? Is it cost prohibitive?

Ba$turds are really trying to make us use electric motors huh?

[si Banker]

I can tell you from personal experience the t will destroy a fiberglass tank even if it has been coated with a "gas tank cream". Ducati motorcycles are having unbelievable problems with the plastic tanks on their new motorcycles.

Anyone who says that it will not harm your car is full of s---

[Wil Ferch]

Draco:

That's the problem...you hit it on the head. It would be much simpler if all we had to do was replace a few rubber hoses and lines.

Just *where* would we get ( say) Pressure regulators, pressure diaphragms, O-rings, fuel pumps and seals, smaller pieces of all kinds and places......for our fuel systems?

Here's a challenge....go to the Porsche PET parts catalogue....and go thru the whole fuel system.... soup-to-nuts. Incredble number of pieces and components. And just WHO would be able to supply E15-capable stuff for all these Porsche parts? Not Porsche......

.... a mess.....

[Vino]

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

What would be the cost to retro fit to take the abuse of the E10-E15 fuels? Is it cost prohibitive?

Ba$turds are really trying to make us use electric motors huh?

I was thinking the same thing but after reading the comments above, especially from Steve, you would start by changing out your gas tank and probably your fuel lines and so on to all kinds of new material.

I think the people who may get rich if this process continues into the new era of e15, are the chemists who can develop a product that can off set the abuse of the new fuel on the older cars and still make them run happy.

I read somewhere that there are many legal actions to stop the use of e15 or limit it's use. There needs to be some massive petitioning going on here, e5 would be enough in my opinion and just find other ways to use flex fuels in commercial Vehicles with huge tax incentives.

[Wil Ferch]

"Massive petitioning"......doesn't happen ( unfortunately) with US citizens, as a "group". Mostly Sheeple watching American Idol...I'm afraid.

This is not Boston in 1775/76..........

[KNS]

Because this has been approved for 2001 and newer cars, E10 will still have to be available for older cars (I can't remember the article that I recently read this in). Because gas stations may be forced to sell 10% and 15% ethanol, people will have a choice as to which blend they put in their tank. Gas stations are not thrilled about having to install and sell yet another grade of gasoline. This was touched on in the above article.

[zimmer266]

Well, I will write my letters.

[mca]

Ethanol free stations and there is a petition to sign >>> Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

I don't think that most Americans care and it is a shame.

A couple of weeks ago I watched "Food Inc." ... it is amazing how corn is used in freaking everything these days.