and you guys thought I needed help last time...HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Leland Pate]

I just now figured out that the auto hobby shop here on base has internet access!!!
Wish I had known about this a year ago.

Ok, here's the scoop...I need help very badly folks.
I got everything finished up and mounted this morning.

I removed the fuel pump relay and coil wire to just spin the motor to get oil pressure in the engine. Motor turns over fine. Then I reinstalled the relay to get fuel into the injectors, -I can hear it running and still no problems...there was also good spark comming out of the coil.
Then i plugged the coil back in to see what happens.
Nothing. It just cranks and cranks.
I know I have spark and I know that fuel is "not" getting to the injectors!
I know that the fuel pump is running because this morning I drained the gas tank, filled it with new gas (old stuff was definately bad) and then ran the pump to flush out the bad gas in the lines. I didn't have a problem then. So I know the pump is working. The tank is half full. I installed a new fuel filter and accumulator...no leaks. Everything looks fine but there is no fuel getting to the injectors. I pulled a couple injectors and turned over the engine...nothing. There is also fuel getting to the center fuel line on the distributor housing. (I removed it and gas went everywhere)
So I think I might have a problem with the fuel distributor...
Maybe the control plunger is "stuck" from sitting so long????

Anyone???
Please help!
I'm running out of time here!!!!!!!!!

CIS gods where are YOU!!!!!!!!!???

Please!

[paulhagedorn]

I have never had to deal with the fuel distributor on a 911, but I did on my 1978 Saab...which is also CIS. I had a problem where it had been clogged by dirt dobbers. They managed to get into the fuel in and out holes and made nests in it. Basically, disconnect all of the fuel lines from the fuel distributor, unhook it from everything else, and take it out. Then there should be a couple of screws or bolts holding it together.

Clean it up really nicely(I mean microscopically clean!) and reinstall it.

Hopefully this is your problem, Lee.

Paul

[Leland Pate]

Ok, I've narrowed it down a bit farther.

I loosened the fuel distributor line to #1 injector at the distributor housing. And fuel (definately under pressure) came spirting out!

So, this tells me that fuel is definately getting to at least one injector line yet no fuel is squirting out of that injector. I even had someone turn the engine over while I lifted the throttle plate and still nothing!

These are brand new, never used before injectors! Whats going on here????!!! Help!!!!

[Leland Pate]

Ok, another development.

I loosened a fuel injector fitting (from fuel line to the injector) and guess what...fuel also came squirting out. So, now I think I may have a fuel pressure problem.

Don't CIS injectors require a certain amount of fuel pressure to open the injector and let it spray. If that is the case than I am now fairly certain that I am not getting enough fuel pressure to open the injectors.
Now I am stumped. What can cause me to not get enough fuel pressure?????

AKKK!!! Help!!!!!

[john walker's workshop]

turn on the key and lift the sensor plate arm by hand until you hear the injectors squirt. (remove air filter to access it). kind of a whirring sound. don't do it too long or you can hydraulically lock the engine. this should allow starting. if you didn't mess with the CO adjusting screw, it should run as before.

[patalive]

Lee, this is purely a wild-assed guess, but if the injectors require a minimum amount of pressure, and the fuel pump provides the pressure (??), could it be a bad battery?
Chuck

[Leland Pate]

John, I did just that (described in my Bentley manual and here's the deal:
I am not getting the injectors to open. I pulled one out and watched it while the engine cranked. Nothing...I also gently lifted up on the sensor plate arm and still nothing. No fuel out of the injectors.

From what I have read, this seems to be a fuel pressure problem. The symptoms for low fuel pressure include external fuel leaks.( I see none)
Restricted/kinked fuel supply ( I see no kinks)
Clogged fuel filter ( it's brand new and facing the right way)
Clogged fuel pickup in tank. (I don't think so because it was flowing fine this morning)
Leaking or incorrectly adjusted pressure regulator. (I didn't mess with that adjustment)

Why am i not getting enough fuel pressure to open the damn injectors??? Anyone ever had this happen before?

Does the fuel pump need to be bled? Can there be air in the lines or something?????

[stormcrow]

Leland,

If you are getting fuel to the injector lines, it's possible that you may not have enough pressure. Did you pull all injectors out to see if any were getting fuel?

You really need to have a fuel injection test kit to check pressures on the system. That is the only sure way of checking where the problem is.

Air lock may cause the problem, but I don't think so. If the pressure from the fuel pump is high enough, then any air would be blown through the injectors. If I remember correctly, the pressure on the fuel pump is somewhere around 80-110 psi. If you are getting the proper fuel pressure, then your problem could be your pressure regulator or the bypass on the fuel distributor.

Steve

[Doug Zielke]

Lee,
Bill Krause seems to know more than just about anybody about the CIS. Maybe he'll read your post, or drop him a note.

------------------
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
The Blue Bomber's Website
"If it ain't broke...we'll help you fix it 'til it is!"

[Leland Pate]

Thanks Stormcrow, I did pull the injectors to see if they were getting anything...all day today -nothing.
Here is the latest- and I must say...it is now a bit more confusing.
I had my friend out looking at it and I was describing to him what it was doing (ie. no fuel to the injectors) then I hopped in the car to crank it over a few times. (I should add that on my car the little switch that keeps the fuel pump from running until it starts cranking has been disconnected. My mechanic said it wasn't working so he just unplugged it. So on my car when the key is turned to the "on" postition, the fuel pump starts running. It has never been a problem in the past.)

So, as I am sitting in the car with the key on and fuel pump running, I was talking to Justin and after about 6 or 7 seconds I cranked it over to show him that it wasn't firing.
And "Bab bloop ba bloom- stumble stumble stumble"
it actually tried to fire!!!!!!
I was in shock...I couldn't figure out why it tried to start just then and hadn't all day. We started prodding around and this is what we found:
If I let the fuel pump run for a few seconds then try to crank it, it will stumble for just a few seconds and die. I removed a couple injectors to see which one was "sorta working" and I found that for some odd reason the #1 cylinder injector is spewing gas when the fuel pump is turned on. But when it starts cranking, it stops. Now tell me that ain't wierd. So now on top of the problem of the injectors not getting any fuel, I apparently have one injector that starts spewing (not atomizing) a bit of fuel when the pump starts running. So far that one cylinder is the only one that is doing it. Hell, as frustrating as this all is, I am now happy as hell that I got SOME sign of life from it!!

Well, I haven't the slightest clue what to do now. I'm not sure if I might have a faulty (brand new) pressure accumulator, or something wrong with my fuel lines or pump, or if the problem is something else.
I know these posts are long and confusing.

I cannot express how much I appreciate the guys who take the time to read through my rambleings and try to help.

Warren, JW...Storm?? Any suggestions???
Should I buy one of those special and I'm sure, expensive, fuel pressure tester kits?

[BKOMAR]

Lee....i dont know if this is pertinent to the 911...but it worked for my 914. I couldnt afford to wait to get a Fuel Injection tester from my auto parts store (I live in Kansas...everything must be "ordered") my mechanic suggested that I get an oil pressure guage...like would be mounted on the dash. On The fitting that would accept the hose I put a piece of fuel line (about 2 feet) with a hose clamp...and attached the other end of it to the cold start valve nipple on my fuel rail. I could test the fuel pressure and the pressure regulator. At least it might rule out some fuel pressure problems and it cost only about $6. I still use it to make sure my regulator is calibrated about every other tune up. I would imagine that there is someplace to tap into the fuel system like this (?) It sure is a love/hate relationship with these cars huh! Brian

[wckrause]

Leland

You can get a CIS tester from JC Whitney for about $50, or I can loan you mine. You need to verify system and control pressure before you get much farther into this.

Say the word, and I can send my tester to you, (if I can find all the pieces).

BTW this quote
"Bill Krause seems to know more than just about anybody about the CIS"

had me laughing my ass off.

------------------
Bill Krause
'79 911SC Euro
MY PELICAN GALLERY

[rstoll]

Still sounds like air in the system. Can you pull all 6 injectors up, place a folded shop towel under each, turn on key and lift sensor plate until you get fuel coming through all six. From you last post, it sounds like you are almost there.

------------------
Robert Stoll
83 SC
83 944

[Doug Zielke]

Bill,
You're too modest. Your CIS tips have helped me a lot. Better than Bentley as a matter of fact. Just giving credit where it's due!

------------------
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
The Blue Bomber's Website
"If it ain't broke...we'll help you fix it 'til it is!"

[wckrause]

rstoll sounds like he's one to something. It may take a while to get all the air out of the system.

Also, on the subject of your fuel pump running with the key in the ON position. In addition to the safety issue, there is another downside to this. If the fuel pump is running, that means that there is also voltage present at the WUR and the AAR. If you leave the pump on for very much time before cranking the engine, then the WUR may have heated up enough that it is no longer enriching the mixture enough to provide a good cold start.

Have you checked to see if you're getting any spray out of the cold start injector? Even if the rest of the CIS is screwed, you should at least get an intial start of the engine if the cold start injector and thermotime switch is working.

Thanks Doug, I'm glad that I've helped. I feel like a big sink for information, not a source.

[Leland Pate]

Well, rstoll was right on the money.

We went at it again and for some reason every time we cranked it it seemed to stumble a bit longer then all of a sudden, it fired up.
It ran ok,...a little rough for a few minutes then seemed to smooth out a bit.
I had Justin keep his foot on the accelerator and gently ease it back and forth between idle and 3000 rpm for exactly 20 minutes while I inspected and listened for problems.
I wish I could say that I found nothing wrong but I did. A very big problem.


I instantly started looking for fuel and oil leaks anywhere on the motor. There is just a bead of a drop coming from the hard oil line to the soft oil line under the motor. Not a big deal...a bit of torquing should stop that.
But here is the nightmare.
I was absolutely heartbroken to see oil dripping from undernieth the pulley. maybe 2 drips a second. Definately not a minor leak. I kept my eye on it while we let it run for 20 minutes. After we shut her off, I started inspecting this leak.
I am sad to say that it is coming from the very top of the nose bearing where the two crank halves meet. It is a pressure leak and stops when shut down. At firt I was hoping that it might just be the pully seal which wouldn't be that hard to replace. But no, it is definately the o-ring around the nose bearing. What a nightmare.
As soon as the engine fires up you can clearly see a bit of oil spurt out of the seam where the nose bearing meets the case halves. It then runs down both sides of the bearing and drips undernieth. I know the consequences of this. There is no way to repair it with out doing what is essentially another rebuild. Total teardown. I'm not mad, -dissapointed but not mad. With all that has happened this week it kind of puts things into perspective.
I don't know what to do now though. I shudder at the thought of removing the entire engine again just to tackle this sucker. And I cannot imagine what I could have possibly done wrong. It was very simple. I lubed the o-ring with Dow Corning 111, made absolutely sure that the nose bearing sat into the alignment pin, and I definately made sure that the loctite got into all recesses. And the case was properly and evenly torqued.
What could I have done wrong?

Other than that everything else seemed to be great...no smoke, no clatter (the chains seemed a bit noisy but that is expected) and it ran just a little bumpy but I have not used a timing light or had the mixture adjusted.


Well, now my baby will sit until I can decide what to do.

I want to thank everyone who has helped me get to this point for over a year now. It would be pointless to just name a few because virtually everybody on this list has contributed at one time or another.

I love you man ,

Leland

[Doug Zielke]

[9eleven]

Damn, Leland, that is a bummer.

Hang in there!

I had my fingers crossed for you, but leaks seem to be one of those things that unfortunately seem to happen to first timers. There are so many damn places for a 911 engine to leak, and so many places where the exact type and amount, and method of application, are critical. Little things that are hard to describe or pick up in a book.

Is there ANY way you can seal it up without taking it all apart again?!?

[Leland Pate]

yes, there is a glimmer of hope.

It's not a very good plan with only a slight chance of doing any good...

I guess I could take a bit of some sort of "filler" material, and pack it into the joint that is leaking.

I haven't the slightest clue what would work though. Epoxy would vibrate loose. Loctite 574 wouldn't have a chance to harden...
Maybe some of that "Quicksteel" stuff you buy in a tube.
It is not a high pressure quirt...just a dribble. and it seems to be located right at the seam of the case halves and the nose bearing.


I did take it fir a short trip around base. I love it! What a car. Can you imagine what a great feeling that is??!!! She's running pretty good. Just a bit of timing and fix the slight exhaust leak (at collector to cat.) and she'd be rearin' to go! In fact, while I was driving, it was very easy to forget that there was a leak back there. Too bad.

Well, give me your imputs guys and I'll decide what route to take.

Leland

[CamB]

Leland:

Can't help on the leak, but,

Your car starts, runs and drives - you are so my hero!!! I hope that (leak aside) you have a big feeling of accomplishment right now, and that anyone else wondering if they can do it, no thinks they can.

I guess I even sort of think I maybe could...

Cam